How to Acquire a Sourdough Starter
There are basically three ways to get your own sourdough starter.
- From a friend. If possible, this is surely the easiest. And since most sourdough bakers take some measure of pride in their cherished starter, they will likely go out of their way to see you on a shared path to the sourdough promise land.
- Free on-line. A Google search on “free sourdough starter” will probably turn up something. But let me save you the time. There’s a group known as “Friends of Carl” who will mail you Carl Griffith’s 1847 Oregon Trail Sourdough Starter in dried form for the cost of a self addressed stamped envelope. For all the details visit http://www.carlsfriends.org.
- Buy it. There are any number of purveyors of sourdough starter who would be happy to exchange their product for some of your dough. One who comes immediately to mind is, well, me! Of course my sourdough starter is the best on the planet for sure and is available from the Breadtopia Marketplace, to be shipped to you dried (dormant) or in the actual living form.
Note: My sourdough starter was actually started by a friend of mine in San Francisco years ago, which I think is fitting since I was also started in San Francisco years ago. However, while you might logically think this would make it “genuine” San Francisco sourdough starter, many sourdough experts would argue that regardless of where your starter originates, sooner or later it becomes “genuine” to the locale where it resides. The theory being that the yeast spores and bacteria indigenous to your locale will infiltrate your prized culture and become its dominant strain. Others, especially the ones who sell starter from Zanzibar, Giza or wherever, hold a different opinion. Either way, my genuine SF/Iowa sourdough starter is the best on the planet for sure 
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{ 74 comments… read them below or add one }
What does it cost to receive a dry starter?
Hi Ann. It’s $5.76 total when I mail it within the US. Eric
Hi, I received my starter from my mom in 1972 (who knows how long she’d had it) and have, over the years, made just about everything you can imagine with sourdough, including bagels and doughnuts. My favorites are english muffins, chocolate cake, and waffles. One thing I’d like to learn more about is how to cook bread in a heavy, cast-iron dutch oven on the stove top and also in the coals of a campfire. I wonder if any of your viewers (readers?) have experience with this kind of cooking? Marie
Marie: First, the type of dutch oven. I assume you are speaking of the type that has a lip around the lid and stands on three short legs. The other types are just glorified cast iron pots. They can be used as ovens, I suppose, but not as easily.
Given the above, and assuming it is properly seasoned as any cast iron should be, it is ridiculously simple to use over a fire. It is easiest with charcoal although campfire coals may be used. They are just not as controllable as charcoal and usually have to be replaced a time or two during baking. For a 12 inch diameter oven put 12-13 coals on top (the lip on the lid keeps them from falling off) and another 12-13 underneath. That gives you a 350-375 degree oven and you can bake anything you can in your oven at home. Size is the only limitation. Dutch ovens can be stacked so the coals on top become the coals on the bottom for the next oven. That is a bit difficult to do with your normal oven at home unless you have really high ceilings and a very, very tall ladder.
One further recommendation: when baking it is best to use a baking pan/sheet for most things just as at home. Put three or four small stones or other objects under the pan so it does not actually contact the bottom of the dutch oven. That becomes your oven rack so you are baking with the hot air all around instead of being in direct contact with the heat source and likely burning on the bottom.
Hope this helps.
Eric, there’s a fourth way to get a sourdough starter. I loved the flavor of a bread from a coastal bakery. I purchased a fresh loaf and took a slice from the middle of the loaf. Took the soft center of the slice and soaked it in a cup of filtered water to soften. When softened, I added some flour and placed in the oven with the light on overnight. There were a few bubbles in the AM and removed about a 1/4 cup of that and refreshed it with half cup each of water and flour. Before long I had a fairly active starter. This took just a couple of days. Although I have yet to use it with the long fermentation to increase the sourness which is what I liked about the bread.
That was creative. I’ve read that yeast dies at a relatively low temperature when baked, so it would be interesting to know if the starter you created came from the air and/or flour you added or the bread you soaked. If it was from the soaked bread, it would sure be easy to capture some of the prized cultures from the famous San Francisco sourdough breads, for example.
I liked the idea of using yeast from an actual product, but I wonder if bread yeast could survive the baking process. On the other hand, I have done exactly the same thing to get a yeast culture from beer (think hospital level sterilization) … and then make my own.
There’s a restaurant near me that has their own brick oven and makes great pizza. Bought some pizza dough from them, and used some of it for a starter. It’s one of the stronger starters I’ve ever had!
The idea or concept of soaking a piece of bread from the center of a loaf of bread to obtain a starter is a nice experimental idea, however, anything that has been baked at a temperature of over I believe 145 degrees is when yeast cells die. So, apparently, although it may have been a good base for a starter (??) it was probably the actual capturing of wild yeast in your environment that actually came to life as an active starter. There is a lot of info on starters in Prof. Raymond Calvel’s book – The Taste of Bread, which has been translated from French into English within the past several years, and can be found on Amazon on-line. May your dough rise faithfully!
Eric,
I’m sure glad I came across your website while looking for information on sourdough bread. Since finding your site I have requested and recieved a dry sourdough starter from the freinds of Carl’s at http://www.carlsfriends.org that you mentioned on your site.
As a lover of all things scientific I am having great fun reviving the starter and watching it come back to life. I would say it is “almost” as fun as baking a loaf. Now that I have my starter and hope to be able to use it this weekend I am back on Breadtopia to search for a great recipe and review some of the videos you have here.
Thanks much for the wealth of information you have here. I’ll be heating up the baking stone again any day now and making my first loaf of sourdough.
Dave M.
Fresno, Ca
erik,
two questions;
which of your starters do you place in the # 1 position? it would seem you would choose one over the other. and do they come with directions?
second, someone wrote you about putting diced garlic in the bread at the beginning, meaning before the 18 hour rise period. do you think there is any chance the garlic would go bad after a8 hours plus a few hours for the second rise? i have made olive bread that way but the olive have been cured.
thanks! whatever starter you recommend i’ll order!
joe detrano
Hi Joe,
It’s really a toss up which one you choose. The live is much faster to resuscitate and build up to a usable quantity. They both come with instructions.
Not really sure about the garlic once it’s diced. I know you’re not supposed to store it in oil at room temp. I have a feeling it will be fine and worst case I would think baking at 450 – 500 would wipe out anything harmful. Maybe someone else here knows that answer.
I was wondering if you were successful with your new batch of starter. Someone sent me a slice of bread from the Boudin Bakery in San Francisco. I’d love to be able to experiment with that and make a starter out of it. Please let me know if your sourdough bread starter was successful.
Hi Eric! I just received your starter in the mail. Thank you for shipping it out so quickly!
I will follow your instructions but of course, I have a few questions that I hope you will answer for me.
In your directions, you say that we can build up our starter to the quantity we desire. We, your little dough grasshoppers are then to feed our stater once or twice daily. Please, just how much am I to feed my one or two cups of stater for those one or two daily feedings? My goal is to create enough starter on my first batch to not only use two times a week for baking but to give some away to friends who also like to bake.
My second question is about throwing away excess starter while in the feeding process of the starter that I’m going to use for baking bread. You poured yours down the sink. May I give that away to others to use instead of throwing it away? Can’t I just add that extra cup or two to another container and start another starter from that? I hate to waste something as precious as sourdough starter since I have been without it for years.
That’s all I had to ask you, Eric. I will start your starter tomorrow with great pleasure! I can’t wait to see what is created by a San Francisco/Iowa starter. I look forward to years of great bread! Wish me luck!
Best wishes,
Andee S.
Los Angeles, CA.
To create a really healthy starter, ideally you want to at least double the volume of starter you’re feeding. If you have a cup of starter, feed it a cup of flour and about 2/3 – 3/4 cup of water. Otherwise, you can just keep it alive and reasonably healthy just by feeding it some amount of flour and water every few days or so.
But this isn’t exactly a hard science. If you’re not baking much for a period of time, you can cut back on maintenance. Then when you’re ready to bake again, take a 1/4 cup of your old starter and feed it 1 cup flour and some water. Do this a couple times and your neglected starter is strong again.
This whole SD maintenance thing is just something you get a feel for over time. Learning as you go from experience is the best way. There’s a wide range of care/feeding/maintenance options that work and are perfectly valid.
Of course you can give away all you want and start as many containers as you want, rather than toss it.
Eric –
I have a question for you. I want to mail my father-in-law some of my starter. I received live starter from you a few months ago. How do you prep your starter so that a live starter can travel via USPS for up to 4 days and be a viable starter on the other end?
thanks
nate
I just feed it really well right before I mail it, adding enough flour to create a pretty doughy ball. Then double bag it in a zip lock bag like it came to you. I’ve had almost no problems with this method as it seems to travel well.
Hi. I have a large covered enamel pot that I use for boiling up jars when I do preserves. Will that serve as a dutch oven for my bread baking? Thanks. Susan.
It should be better than nothing but there’s something about the heat transfer properties of a high thermal mass container like a cast iron Dutch oven or a ceramic baker that works particularly well.
Hi,
Are there ways to control the flavor that the sourdough imparts to the bread? I’ve had some that were so strong I could hardly eat it, and many others that were like heaven. I don’t know if the problem was the starter or the cook. I plan to mainly use mine for bisquits and pancakes. I’ve been wanting to do this for years, so here goes.
David
Hi David,
There are lots of ways you can try to control the flavor. I say “try” because it’s not always easy. In fact, I find it’s mostly not easy.
Although one thing that seems to hold true on a fairly consistent basis, is if you want a milder starter then feed it more frequently and feed it as close to the time you use it as practical.
You can find some conversation about controlling sour in the comments over at http://www.breadtopia.com/make-your-own-sourdough-starter, if you can handle scrolling through to find them.
Thanks for the info, I’ll have a look. Back in the late 80’s I was driving through Jackson Hole, Wyoming and stopped in at a place called “Sourdough Jacks” for breakfast. The place was packed and a line way out the door. The pancakes were the best I ever had! I didn’t make it back that way until 2000. The place had changed hands, the crowds were gone, and the pancakes were horrible! No amount of butter or syrup could make me finish them. The originals were pretty strong but in a good way. The latest ones were just nasty. There is a place here in town that makes sourdough cakes that are very mild. They are almost too mild, but still great. It just had me wondering how that happens. Obviously not all sourdough is created equal. I guess it will be fun finding that “sweet” spot.
David
Hi Eric.. Enjoy your web pages.
The way I’ve been using to make my sourdough starter is with KEFIR (fermented milk) bacteria, which makes a simple, vigorous, & repeatable starter.
Typically, I add KEFIR whey (the clear non-milky part of “kefirized milk” which separates from the milk curd ) to equal parts of apple cider & flour (usually a combination of wheat berries, rye berries, hull-less barley & flax seed ground in a coffee grinder). Then after 12 – 24 hours I add double the flour & apple cider to it every 12 hours for 2 days or so. Makes a reliable starter, which if left in a jar for several days can develop a strong sourdough taste.
Anyone interested in learning about KEFIR can find lots of info at following web site.
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html
Eric,
I just ordered your live starter. What is the best way to manage the starter for the long haul if you only use it maybe once a week? Would keeping it in the fridge be a good idea, or does it need to stay at room temp? Does the lid always need to be vented?
David
Hi David.
You definitely want to keep in the fridge and vent the lid. Just a tiny vent is sufficient.
For once a week baking, you could probably get by with feeding it once a week. After a while you’ll get a feel for the best way to manage it. There’s a pretty wide range of workable options.
I have been attempting to make nancy silvertons sourdough starter (grapes, flower water) for a week now. what has happened is that there is a complete separation between the flour and water / grape juice with no foaming activity. Is this an inactive starter or just a complete failure. I tossed the grapes in the cheese cloth this evening and added flour and water in an attempt to kick start it.
Any help would be appreciated!
thanks
Andrew Ward
LA, CA
I’m not sure what the advantages are of using her technique. I tried it once a couple years ago with similar results to yours and ended up tossing it. To be fair, this can (and does) happen with any technique for making starter, but now I just recommend Debra Wink’s method since it’s much easier and has a higher probability of succeeding.
Hi, Just made my first loaf today. Tastes wonderful. It was a bit underdone in the center. I live at 3,500 ft and wonder if I need to bake it more. The loaf was very dark on the outside. Can I somehow lighten it up a bit? Any ideas are welcome as I am a novice.
I know I saw on your website how to make your sour dough “more sour” but for the life of me I can’t locate it! Please let me know where it is, or how to do it.
I received my starter last week and am getting ready to try it for the first time tomorrow I’m really excited to taste it!
Thanks, Eric
Gerri
How’s this for a belated reply?
I really need to put together a whole dedicated section on this topic and encourage contributions from others. Adjusting the degree of sour is a popular question. Many people want to know how to increase the sour. Not quite as many want to know how to decrease the sour.
For the life of me, I have yet to come up with advise that works for everyone all the time. Generally speaking, the longer the dough ferments, the more sour it becomes. But you don’t want to over proof the dough either. So one thing that many bakers try to do is let their bread rise in a cool place to rise slowly. Bakeries may have temperature controlled rooms for just this. For the home baker, you can retard the proofing process by refrigerating the dough for several hours or overnight then resuming the process at room temp until the dough is ready to bake.
This is something you have to experiment with with each recipe to find what works, if it works at all.
Allowing the sourdough starter to get “really ripe” by not feeding for a few days before baking can contribute to a more sour bread. A baker at King Arthur Flour once told me she “abuses” her starter to achieve more sour.
If anybody reading this has any reliable and repeatable suggestions, please add them below and I’ll start collecting info to aggregate in one place later.
When attempting to make wild yeast sourdough starter, the liquid (Hooch) or alcohol seems to form on the bottom of the jar instead of the top. Can you tell me what causes this?
Art
Hooch forms when the starter has been sitting around too long without feeding. Almost everybody says it’s not a problem and either pour it out or mix it back in (if the starter is dry to start with for example). On the other hand, Hooch never forms on my starter as long as it’s fairly vigorous and fed fairly often so it doesn’t seem like a particularly good sign either.
As to the hooch forming on the bottom instead of the top, I’ve seen that and always assumed that it was just forming somewhere and getting trapped if the starter mixture was fairly stiff. But that’s just a guess.
Wow, this is cool. I’ve googled sour dough starter a bunch of times but never found anything as helpful as your blog. Do you mind if I link you up on my blog?
Hi Jaime. Thanks for the nice feedback and, sure, link up all you want!
Hello,
I am finding these posts very fascinating and am learning alot from your sharing. I have been ‘toying’ around with fermenting foods for about a year and watching the videos got me hooked to try the sour dough starters. I posted earlier that my husband was making wine a few weeks ago with some homegrown concord crushed grapes, skins and all. I skimmed off the top part of his already fermenting wine ( it had bubbled over the counter accidently and knew it was ‘good’ stuff) and then put it w. some ww. flour and water. It started almost immediately. So far I have made three batches of what I consider to be very good bread. I am new at this method, but what would be the difference between the pineapple starter versus the grapes? Would I get a sweeter bread? My sour dough recipe has that ’sour’ taste through-out. I also tried the wheat sprouting method in water and that gave me the same results that you talk about in the above posts ? Thanks. P
Here’s my take on your question about sourdough starter differences;
There are numerous strains of beneficial bacteria and yeast that can be captured each time you create your own starter. It’s the lactobacilli (bacteria) that’s responsible for imparting flavor. According to Sourdoughs International (www.sourdo.com), “In addition to the many wild yeast strains in sourdough cultures, lactic acid bacteria generate 45 flavor producing ingredients.”
Since it’s entirely possible to end up with a different set of ingredients with each batch of starter generated, you may also end up with a different flavor and texture of bread. But unless you have your starter lab tested, you only have your own subjective experience to go by.
Also from Sourdoughs International: “… the primary flavor does not come from the yeast, but instead from lactobacilli present in symbiosis with the strain or strains of wild yeast in the culture. There can be one strain of wild yeast and one strain of lactobacilli, but there also can be several strains of each in a sourdough culture. In most cultures these strains have not been scientifically identified.” From what I’ve read, the famous San Francisco sourdough bread flavor allegedly comes from lactobacilli sanfrancisco, an actual unique strain of bacteria that may only exist naturally in that region.
I’ve started and maintained several sourdough starters over the years and have also acquired starters from other sources (King Arthur Flour, Sourdoughs International and Carl Griffith’s starter). While I have found differences between them and with the results I get, I’ve also found that the differences faded over time. Others (like Sourdoughs International) contend that each cultures differences can be maintained over time.
It’s a fascinating subject for sure and provides endless opportunity for experimenting and just having fun with it.
By the way, while the grape skins may harbor different strains and produce a different starter, any grape flavor that might initially be present will fade to non-existent after a refreshment or two. The same would be true of any other medium used to start the starter, like potatoes or whatever.
Hello
P
Thanks for the descriptive info on the sour dough bacteria. I have already dusted off my chemistry books and am delving into this with increased enthusiasm. I definitely will google more on Debra Wink.
I just wanted to share that I used the grape starter also with milk and have created a ‘cheese’ consistency with it after 24hours. I am hesitant to taste unless I have it tested but the texture, smell and look of it feels like a creamy ricotta. I use the whey for non-food purposes. I have also created some probiotic cultures and now this will also add to my journal.
Hey…what’s better than putting asiago or feta in your sour dough bread recipe…..move over Panera!!!!
Thanks for a lively and informational website.
Breadtopia,
I have heard about people having starters back from generations ago….how do they keep them alive that long? How long will one that’s not being used “keep” in the refrigerator if its not being used? And can one that’s been sitting refrigerated for two years still be reactivated?
They’ll live forever if taken care of. I’ve heard of people reviving their starter after weeks of being unattended in the fridge. Don’t know about 2 years though, that would be a major stretch.
Sour comes from acetic and lactic acid formed during fermentation. at low T (18-20 deg C = 65-68 F) mostly acetic acid forms, which evaporates on baking. At higher T, lactic acid forms to a higher degree. This does not bake out and gives the bread the sour taste. I once made rye bread in the summer in an over hot kitchen and had a hard time eating the result. At ~ 27 deg (80.6 F) and above, mostly lactic acid forms and you get more sour than you want. Got this from a German site. They recommend starting the 3-day process at 18-20 C, sponge and main dough at 20-22 C and final fermentation and rise at ~24 C. Have done this and had much admired German rye bread. This is definitely a winter undertaking if you live in the south!
Thanks a lot, armgard.
This is great information. Maybe the best clue for people desirous of producing a sour tasting bread consistently. And the best explanation for why results can seem random, or at least elusive.
Thanks so much for this site and videos. I have taken a bit of time off from baking after moving from the pacific northwest to New Orleans. But I am now back in the PNW and was excited to find your site to jump start me back into baking. I just started my own sourdough starter today and later today will making the almost no knead bread…..thanks!
Question for Armgard:
Can you give us some more detail about how the 3 days are divided up between the sponge, main dough, and final fermentation stage? Is the 3 day cycle necessary. I guess I’d bite the bullet if that’s what it takes, but maybe parts of it can be shortened, or perhaps the three days is the big item.
I haven’t made sourdough in many years. My mom had a great starter she made from potato water. She used a plastic cup full of that water and covered it with cheese cloth. She then took it to the local cemetary and placed it next to an old head stone, from the early 1800’s, covered with lichens and fungus overnight. The spores fell into the potato water and it made the best sourdough I’ve ever had.
I recently got a starter of “Amish friendship bread” which is like sourdough but has milk. I’m adding just flour and water to it now and it’s getting a bit strong. I love to bite into sourdough that bites me back! So nice to find this group!!!
I must admit I am intrigued by the whole headstone concept. Would sourdough made from proximity to a 1800s headstone taste different from one that was close to a headstone from say 1972? Inquiring minds want to know.
Or how about if you made sourdough near a headstone of someone who had a reputation of being mean. Would that make a more sour sourdough?
Would one made by Billie The Kid’s grave be a “killer” bread??
Sorrry, couldn’t resist!
I too am intrigued by armgards comments regarding the affects of temperature on the bacterial component of a starter. I’ve been playing around for about a month now, trying various ways of creating a good reliable (in taste) starter. I’ve had decent luck, but my first batch really developed a bad taste, and I suspect it could have been the ambient temp. That attempt was a countertop (no refridgeration) method, and I turn my furnace down to 62 at night. The other attempts produced a better result, but I realized that I would refrigerate them and warm/feed them during the day while the furnace was at 72. Maybe coincidence, but I’m going to pursue this line of reasoning.
Love the info on this site, thank you Eric!
For all of you who are interested in the science behind sourdough, as I am, Debra Wink has recently begun posting regularly on thefreshloaf. Here’s a link to her post yesterday:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough
Enjoy.
I have a starter that has been in my family from Missouri since the wagon train days. It is hard to kill. When my folks married in 1932, they did not have electricity. They kept the starter in a jar in a bucket and hung in down into the well to keep it cool. They baked every 1-2 days. I was taught that if you have not baked in a while, to boil a small potatoe, mash it and add water and all to your starter. Kind of a kick start. Well I traveled in a motor home for over 3 years and the starter did not like it at all, so I froze it. That starter was looking pretty bad and I thought it was surely dead. But this starter contains DNA from all of my baking ancestors and I am the only one that has kept it. So, last weekend I did the potatoe water thing and guess what??? I made sourdough bread, the first time in nearly 5 years! It was not as sour, but I will continue to bake. A blessed miiracle! I need to learn to dry it, just in case. I don’t want to every kill it. How do you dry it? Also, this whole thing with San Francisco sour dough bread is funny to me, because after all, it went thru Missouri first to get to SF.
Keep Baking!
Cathie
Cathie, under the sourdough video header there is a video on how to dry your starter for long term storage…it is quite easy.
Hi Eric,
Again, AWESOME results. On a pizza stone, in a cast iron pan, in a enamel dutch oven, cast dutch oven, with steam or with out, it’s all been fantastic.
Yesterdays perfect loaf was leavened with your wonderful starter (who’s been named Eric.) DH had to ask who Eric was when I said it was time to feed him, I think he feared that I had brought a new pet home, which in reality, I have!
I am curious about a super large loaf recipe – or even one that produces 4-5 regular loaves. I have a fairly large commercial oven in the Lodge kitchen, it can bake 5 regular loaves without rotating them.
We had some guests bring us an enormous sourdough loaf made by one of the guys Romainian Grandmothers. It was at least 16-18″ long and 1′ wide. It was so good, the crust and crumb were perfect, the taste was quite sour. It was a very special gift. I have tried to get the recipe from her thru him, but so far, no luck. Maybe it’s a family recipe she doesn’t care to share.
I see in your video that the regular NK recipe with Cranberries & Pecans can be doubled. Has anyone quadrupled it?
Maybe I should just give it a go. Watch the texture and see what happens?
OH! Forgot to mention that the toys I bought from your store are awesome. The thermometer is great, works like a charm and is very quick. The raising basket is lovely & very functional, it works so well and I agree, wheat bran is the best for dusting it.
The dough whisk – LOVE IT!
The scale is a hoot, my son uses it weigh everything from his camera lenses to his lizard. I prefer to just use it for my baking. Thank God for the tare feature as the lizard was weighed out in a plastic tub.
And of course, your starter is great, it did it’s thing just like you said it would. All anyone needs to do is read the instructions and comments, watch the videos and Bob’s your Uncle.
Thanks!
This has been such a fun winter project that I hope to extend into our summer biz at the Lodge. The Guests are going to love it.
Next loaves will be the Cran-Pecan. “Eric” has been fed and is waiting to get into on the fun.
Ruth
Hi, just wanted to let you know that I found your website last night and can’t wait to try out your sourdough starter w/ pineapple juice.
I had a starter almost 2 yrs. that I used but wasn’t quite pleased with all the time. It was fed w/ 3/4 c. of sugar and 3 tbsp. of potato flakes plus water. This seemed like too much sugar to me so I gradually statted cutting it back, and eventually switch over to flour and water and still did find.
As I have been reading over your post, it did have a lot of hooch from the very beginning.
Perhaps I’ll become a little more savvy this time.
Sincerely,
Linda
Eric: Hi, I just discovered your site by way of exploring NK and ANK posts on the web… the fact that your site came up close to the top on Google says it all. You have created a GREAT site….
I have been a bread baker for over 30 years, and I still cannot get enough of it.
I have a question about a sourdough starter that I was hoping you might be able to help me with… A number of years ago, 1980ish, I was in West Berlin with my wife. We were staying with a young architect and his friends-all of whom were life-long residents of Berlin. At this time, I was going through a “professional baking” phase- I had worked in a bakery here in America for about a year, but I wanted to find and learn how to bake more “authentic” loaves. This took me to Poilane’s bakery in Paris- he wouldn’t hire me because he didnt’ trust my motives- he thought I was an American “Bread Spy” (”Why else would someone with a college graduate degree want to apprentice as a baker?”) Next stop, Berlin! My architect friends knew my quest and were eager to take me to an artisan bakery which all agreed made the best German whole grain sourdough rye. It was a beautiful, small, SMALL, bakery situated in a neighborhood of small residences, little one-story homes. It even looked as if it had been converted from one of the homes. The only distinguishing details that separated this bakery from the neighbors was the large display window in the front of the house, the numerous cars parked along the street, and the long line of people waiting to buy bread, or the baker’s cherry cobbler- the only baked good other than bread that he sold. (This has turned into a very long question!!!)
So, I met the baker. He spoke no English, but my friend translated. He showed me his wooden flour grinders with which he ground all of his flours, and which had variable settings that he set according to his needs. And he showed me- this is the important part- where he made his sourdough starter from SPLIT PEAS!!!! Well, to cut to the quick- he thought that the language barrier would be too great, and I did not apprentice with him. Soon after, I returned to the states, and became a lawyer, and reserved my baking for home. BUT, because his rye bread was so amazing, I have been hoping to someday find someone who knows of split pea sourdough rye…
By the way, the baker died just a few years after our visist… That is a long way to a simple question: “Have you ever heard of using split peas, or even peas, to create a starter?”
Regardless, Eric, thank you for this site, I hope to enjoy it for a long time to come.
Hi Tim,
I love your story. Fascinating and fun.
Split peas is a new one on me, but then there’s a heck of a lot more I don’t know than what I do know. What I think I know about starters is that it’s basically made up of two components: yeast and bacterial. Yeast is yeast but the flavor comes from the many unique strains of bacteria that exist. I suppose split peas in Berlin could harbor the unique beneficial bacteria that helped create the great bread. Although if I had to bet on it, I’d bet that it’s more likely this late, great Berlin rye and cherry cobbler baker was just an awesome baker. Until I read the part about him passing away, I was ready to book a flight to Berlin to get in line at his bakery.
Thanks for the great post.
Hi Eric. First I have to thank you for your website and all the great information you provide, not to mention the baking accessories you sell. I studied your videos over and over before attempting my first bread. I bought the round La Cloche and Danish dough whisk, and can’t wait until the oblong La Cloche is available again.
I bake about 2 loaves of various styles of bread a week and I quickly found that I had too much bread for my husband and I to finish in a week. So I started slicing them and freezing them. My problem is that when I feed my starter, I don’t want to discard any, so I began feeding the discard also and using that for the bread baking instead of the starter in the jar, which I fed and put back in the refrigerator. The leftover from the bread I use for waffles the next morning.
Is this normal or do I need to seek counseling?
Thanks again!
Hi Sharon.
Counseling is definitely in order. But don’t worry, you have plenty of company.
Question on being a sourdough rookie. Would I be better starting with your dry or your wet sourdough starter. I live in a studio apartment without a lot of expansion room so don’t really have places to store a big mess of sourdough equipment and no place to vary the temp much.
Hi Dick,
You don’t have to worry about varying the temp as the starter will fair well in a wide range of temps. As for room, whether you start with dry or wet starter, you’re going to end up with the same thing – a jar of starter that will spend most of its time in the fridge. You can do it all with a minimal footprint.
Hi Eric,
I’m a sourdough lover too. I’ve tried making my own starter with concord grapes and some using elderberries but was unsuccessful. I did have some luck with Amish Friendship bread starter that a friend gave me. I adapted the Amish starter recipe to the Joy of Cooking recipe for starter which uses half as much sugar but is the same otherwise. It rose my sourdough french bread in about 4 hrs. After using it many months with good success something went wrong and it developed an off flavor (unpleasantly sour) and wouldn’t rise the bread well, so I tossed it.
Last month I wrote away to “Carl’s Friends” and after re-activating it last week I’ve now made several good loaves of bread with it. The taste was mild with only a hint of sour which I prefer. The loaves have taken between 3 to 3 and 1/2 hours to rise. How did you like the Oregon Trail Starter? Were your loaf rising times similar to mine?
Another reader commented about how she hates to waste flour. Are you familiar with this method of replenishing the starter while making bread? One of my bread cookbooks Tassajara Bread Book by Edward Espe Brown uses this method which seems much more economical. You make a sponge the night before your want to make bread using flour, starter and warm water and leave it to ferment overnight in a warm place. The next day it’s all starter and you remove the amount of starter you put in– what you’ll need for making the next batch of bread. You then refrigerate the retrieved starter. You don’t feed it until you make the next batch of bread, so it might not work well if you don’t bake as often.
To the rest of the sponge you add in the other ingredients oil ,salt, and more flour then knead and shape into the loaves. He doesn’t have a dough rising stage for his sourdough bread. He says it usually takes about 2 hrs to rise the loaves before baking. Mine has always taken at least 3 hours, so his starter must be much more active than mine. That seems like a very economical way to do it, but most recipes are not set up in that way. You would have to add extra flour and water to your recipe to account for the starter you will remove.
Thanks for your very interesting site. I’ve enjoyed reading all the posts.
~Susan
I found this about making yeast using split peas.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9905E0D6173FEE3ABC4F51DFB066838B699FDE
VASusan:
Whatever prompted you to seek out an 1880 NYTimes article on yeast? … In any event, THANK YOU! Coincidentally, I just recently discovered that in India to bake using fermented split peas is common- which is precisely what the 1880 article stated. I am going to work with it… If I have luck, I will let you know…
By the way, I do not know if your attempt at creating a grape sourdough starter was from Nancy Silverton’s recipe in the Julia Child, Master Chef cookbook, or not. I followed that recipe and had great success, but the secret is in the purity of the ingredients. You must use organic grapes and pure spring water for the yeast to do their thing… It is worth the effort… Of all the sourdough starters for wheat bread that I have tried, this starter makes the best, most complex, sweet-sourdough wheat bread I have ever had. If you do not have access to the recipe, you can email me at tfmccart@travelers.com and I will send it to you. Thanks again.
Hi Tim,
It was quite by accident! I was looking in a church cookbook I have and happened to came across a recipe for salt rising bread. It was listed in the back along with other interesting recipes from an earlier 1921 version the church had published. It mentioned scalding milk and adding cornmeal to it and leaving it in a warm place till morning. Later it referred to that as “yeast meal”. I was curious about using cornmeal and milk for a starter so I googled salt rising bread “yeast meal” and that article from the NY Times was the second entry and happened to mentioned the split peas.
About my own attempt at making a starter with grapes, I used our homegrown grapes (never sprayed) and our spring water. I boiled the spring water which might not have been a good idea because we’ve had a lot of rain and I was afraid that there might be some stray bacteria in our water that might hurt the baby starter. The deer have now finished off our grapes so I’ll have to wait till next summer before trying again. I already have my split peas soaking, but so far nothing to report. The bag of peas are pretty old so that might be a factor.
I read about making your own wild yeast starter at SourdoLady’s site.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233 and on another site where a chef posted a comment and said it made the best starter. So I combined some of what I’d read elsewhere with SourdoLady’s recipe.
Here’s what I did.
First three days 4 T whole wheat flour/ 2 T freshly squeezed grape juice
Changed to 6 TBSP white flour/ 1/4 cup water on day 4.
I started feeding twice a day on day 7. I did get one good pleasantly tangy loaf from it before it started smelling a little off. Maybe I should have given it a little more time. I might try the grape leaves too.
The Nancy Silverton grape starter recipe is very different… Here it is:
The grape starter is from Julia Child’s new Master Chef book. It takes 10 days to complete but is then yours for life.
2 C. bread flour
2 1/2 C. unchlorinated water
1/2 lb. unwashed organic red grapes, stemmed
Wrap the grapes in well washed cheesecloth, tying the corners to form a bag; lightly crush them with a rolling pin (to release the sugar to mix with the natural yeast on the skins; just like making wine!) and immerse them in the flour water mix. Cover tightly with a lid or plastic wrap secured with a rubber band. Leave at room temperature for 6 days, stirring once or twice a day for six days.
The bag of grapes will eventually appear inflated, and liquid will begin to separate from the flour base. The mixture will begin to taste and smell slightly fruity, and the color will be strange. That is as it should be. By the sixth day the bag of grapes will have deflated, the color will be yellow, and the taste pleasantly sour; the fermentation is complete. The starter is living but weak, and it needs to be fed.
Remove the grapes and squeeze their juices back into the starter. Stir it up thoroughly and transfer it to a clean container. (Although you can use it after just one feeding, the starter will be stronger and healthier with the full treatment) You can refrigerate it until you’re ready to proceed.
Three days before you plan to use it, stir 1 cup flour and 1 cup water into the container, blending well. Let stand uncovered at room temperature until it bubbles up — 3 to 4 hours — then cover and refrigerate. Repeat this the second and third day.
Store the starter tightly covered in the refrigerator where it will keep perfectly for 4 to 6 months, after which it’s a good idea to pour off all but 2 cups and give it another feeding. Before using the stored starter for bread, however, give it the full 3-day feeding schedule once again to restore it and to tone down excess sourness.
MAINTAINING THE STARTER
FEEDING INGREDIENTS:
3 cups bread flour
3 cups tepid water
Three days before you plan to use it, stir one cup of flour and one cup of water into the container, blending well. Let stand uncovered at room temperature until it bubbles up, 3 or 4 hours, then cover and refrigerate. Repeat the feeding the second day, and again on the third, and your starter is ready to use.
The starter will keep for 4 to 6 months in the refrigerator between feedings. Before using the stored starter for bread, give it the full 3 day feeding schedule once again to strengthen it and to tone down excess sourness. ”
As long as you give a starter regular feedings, you shouldn’t have to worry about it becoming too sour or too weak. Think of a bell curve graph; a starter is at its optimum strength and flavor 8 to 12 hours after it’s fed, and drops off considerably in quality beyond that range.
You may be able to find Nancy Silverton’s Rustic Bread or Olive Bread on the Web. She uses it for both recipes.
Thanks for that information, Tim. I saved it and might try using her method next summer.
The water covering the split peas did get a layer of froth in about 12 hrs, so I mixed some of the liquid with flour. It already has some bubbles so I fed it. I did the same with the grape leaf tea which also has some bubbles, but not as many as the split pea/flour mixture. It seems that the boiling water in both cases would kill off the wild yeast. I wonder if it works (if it actually does work) by killing off other bad bacteria so the good things can have a chance to grow there.
Re: Recent starter discussions
What is the difference in various starters such as grape and split pea vs. “normal” starter?
Do these retain any unique qualities, or do they revert to becoming local yeast starters?
I do not know the chemistry, all I know is that the different yeasts produce different tastes. For example, the San Francisco & Carl’s (from the free starter website) starters produce sour sourdough loaves. Nancy Silverton’s grape starter produces a sweet sourdough loaf. The split pea sourdough rye loaves I had in Germany were complex and sweeter than other sourdough rye I have had. The most amazing Desem bread in the Laurel’s Kitchen Bread Book defies description- it is neither sweet nor sour, it tastes like nothing except maybe maybe essential wheatness… I know this is not much help… for me, it is just different yeasts = different tastes
Thanks, Tim
How about the second part of my question? Do these starters retain their uniqueness over time, or are they overwhelmed and conquered by the local resident yeasts. There seems to be some question about the local yeast story, anyway, so the answer to the question is good data toward resolving that issue.
As an aside I was on vacation for 16 days, so while I’m rejuvenating my starter I baked a recipe for French Honey Bread from The Bread Machine Cookbook, but not in the bread machine. I used a bread pan, and it is turning out to be a good interim bread craving solution.
Hi,
Had to taste the starter on day one, day two, day three. I noticed that when I fed it, it was sweeter than the taste it had sitting around neglected. It had a strong, beer-like taste prior to feeding. I wondered if something was wrong. In mixing flour, yeast, water, and sugar, (I used King Arthur’s recipe for this one), can I produce something that will kill someone before a loaf is made? In all the reading I have done, there appears to be no worry to leaving it out and letting the starter do it’s thing. I also have read a lot of different ways to use the discard in pancakes and biscuits. I greatly appreciate everyone’s input! How long can I keep a starter out of the fridge, letting it ferment? Some recipes call for three days, and others for ten.
Thanks in advance!
Oh! And I wanted to say, “Thank YOU” for this site. My mom was a baker and had her own restaurant. She was not comfortable with making sourdough. You have made it all so enjoyable to learn about. It doesn’t seem to be as trying a process as she feared it would be.
Hi Tim,
I have a question that you may or may not be able to answer. Did the baker in Germany used the split pea water just to start his rye bread starter or did he use it to feed the starter as well? I just used mine to begin with, then switched to water like with the grape juice recipe. There was a definite “split pea odor” to it until I fed it today, but after diluting it, it’s not very noticeable now. It looks frothy today and has some bubbles. The “grape tea starter” is catching up to it and has some bubbles too.
Another question, with the Nancy Silverton grape starter, how much starter does she have when she feeds it with the 1 cup ea of flour and water?
Store the starter tightly covered in the refrigerator where it will keep perfectly for 4 to 6 months, after which it’s a good idea to pour off all but 2 cups and give it another feeding.
It sounds from this that there are more than two cups that she stores in the fridge.
Thanks,
Susan
Lee: My experience has been that …It depends on how much you use the starter- the more you use it, the stronger the yeast will become… I worked in a bakery that used a rye starter that was years old… I know that the Desem starter in Laurel’s Bread Book is the very same starter that was used in the Baldwin Hill Breads, and their starter was years old and very strong. As long as I feed the grape starter and use it often it stays “sweet” I also know that Carl’s is a very strong strain of yeast…. having said that, Iam sure that there are stronger and weaker strains of yeast… For example, as strong as the Desem was at Baldwin Hill, I know that they were always very careful because of the threat of contamination…
Susan: re split peas starter: I don’t know… BUT it was not split pea water, it was a split pea mush…
re grape starter: I store 2 cups.
Tim,
I hope I’m not bothering you, but I was wondering, did the Baker add the split pea mush to flour to make a starter or was the mush what he used for his starter? Did it have a strong odor? Are you having any luck with your split pea mush?
Susan: I don’t know the answer to the first question, and I will be diving into the second after this soccer season..