Managing Your Sourdough Starter

Hi Eric…just made the no knead bread in my new La Cloche…i love the way it turned out…i think it may be a little bit more crispy and crunchy than when i baked the other loaves in the cast iron dutch oven–the Lodge that you show on the video…i baked it at 500 degrees for 25 mins. closed and then took the cover off and baked it for 20 mins. more…i may have to back off to 450 degrees next time as my oven is small and i have to lower the shelf down quite near the heating element so the bottom of my loaf got a little burned even though i turned a cookie sheet pan over and put it on the bottom shelf just above the element…the scorching was not too bad but will try it at a little lower temp on my next one…am going to make another one tomorrow night…i have another hr. before i can cut into it and just dying to see what it's like inside…i could hear it crackle when it came out of the oven…what an incredible sound! …what i can tell at this stage is that after an hour and a half of taking my loaves out of the cast iron dutch oven the crust was starting to soften but so far on this loaf the crust is staying crispy/crunchy…WOW!!! just cut it and it is so much more crunchy and the crumb more tender than what i got from the dutch oven…is far superior …the dutch oven creates a chewier crust which isn't bad and i kind of like sometimes but this is Soooo crunchy and a little chewy all at the same time…am really hooked on the La Cloche! …hope this helps you…all the best…Nancy

Sounds great, Nancy, thanks for the feedback. I think in a funny way, every baking day is like Christmas - you never know what you're going to get. Every loaf is different and that's what's fun.

Hi Eric,
Have been enjoying reading all the comments and hints, but now I am even more confused (doesn't take much, these days…) When I first made sourdough starter I was careful not to use anything metal, having read that it was verboten. Now I see that you merrily use a metal spoon and metal whisk? I also read that I shouldn't keep my starter in glass but to use ceramic or plastic. No explanation was given for the ban on glass. I presently alternate between a glass jar with a loose fitting lid and a crock with a plastic bag loosely over the top. I had a lovely crock with a cobalt blue interior and when I washed it after some weeks of use I found that the color had faded at the starter tide mark! I changed to a plain crock just in case I was adding something sinister to the starter. Not sure if it was on your site where someone asked what to do with leftover starter? The first book I read said it is great for slug control, something I look forward to trying this summer. This morning I started a sourdough no-knead batch - fed my starter and used purified water and it went crazy!
Thanks for such interesting information, Ann

Hi Ann.

I'm glad you're getting something out of this site.

It's particularly easy to be confused in this realm as even the opinions among experts seems to vary quite a bit.

Regarding sourdough starter coming into contact with metal; if there is any substance at all to the possibility of that being a problem, it would apply only to prolonged periods of contact. So just to play it safe, I wouldn't store my starter in a metal container, but mixing it with metal utensils is definitely not an issue. I've never heard about a potential glass issue… until now. I think you can forget about that one.

If you have success with using starter as slug control, please report back. I'm sure there are many people who would be interested in knowing about that. Otherwise, I'm not aware of any really creative uses for unwanted starter. Most people are understandably reluctant to dispose of the excess. That's one reason I only keep one or two starters active. Unless you're baking like mad, it does tend to get away from you if your feeding it on regular schedule.

Don't hesitate to ask more question. Not that I can answer them, but I like to hear them at least and others can help too.

Eric

Hi Eric,
Thanks for the reply to my comments. My sourdough NKB was twice the size of my first effort using dry yeast! I am so grateful for your video - the dough was wet but I knew how to shape it since seeing you do it. Now I have another question - the crust wasn't as crunchy as yours and the crumb seems to be almost gummy. Tastes great and is good and holey. I did bake it at 450*, not 500*, but it sounded "done" when I thumped the bottom. Could the temp. make that much difference, or was the dough too wet? I am determined to get this right - even if I end up weighing 300lbs! Thanks again, Ann

Very funny on the 300 lbs comment.

I think I do know the answer to this one. The gumminess is from under cooking. I do this periodically myself. When my dough is wetter than usual, I find it works to add an extra 5 minutes or so to the covered portion of the baking routine.

Also, when I add heavy ingredients, like cheese, I add 5 minutes.

More and more lately, once I get a recipe down, I just weigh out the ingredients and measure the water carefully, so I don't have to even think about making adjustments. It's not as cool as winging it, but usually no one is watching anyway!

I think 450 vs 500 degrees could and would be enough of a difference in the turnout. Especially if the dough is also quite wet.

I do the thump think too, but it must take some experience to correctly read the thump! I think I read in cookbooks that sticking an instant read thermometer into the core of the bread is most helpful when in doubt. For some breads, like sandwich breads, 190 is sufficient, but for rustic breads, like no-knead, I think it's more like 210. But who wants to deal with that.

Hi Eric.

Read all the posts and saw your video on starters. How would you substitute recipes calling for instant or active dry yeast? Most recipes I have call for it and I know oyu mentioned sometimes you may use upto 2 cups of sourdough starter - how would it translate if I simply do not wish to use the commercial yeast products?

Thanks!
Chef Nazir

Let me add though… even if you are able to substitute, how much of the original flour/water do you remove ? I know, confusing but I want to get it right!

Hi Nazir,

If there is a formula that works across the board for all yeast recipes, I don't know it. There are so many excellent sourdough bread recipes in the top bread bread baking cook books and I just follow those, including the one that calls for 2 cups of starter.

The only recipe I've translated from yeast to sourdough is the no-knead recipe of New York Times fame. Now that I've got several no-knead favorites to keep me happy, it's pretty rare when I bake with commercial yeast.

hi Eric-My starter is very bubbly and active however it never doubles in volume.I don't understand why as I have tried to change room temperature and feeding schedules.My bread taste delicious but I always am dissapointed in the rise and never get a 2nd rise.Thanks for any tips!

Hi Candy,

It's difficult for me to tell. I wonder how much (if any) has to do with the strain of sourdough yeast you have. But even changing starters isn't necessarily a long term solution. Do you know anyone in your area that is getting a good rise in their starter and bread?

Thanks for your reply.

Off the topic I posted earlier, I just made bread using poolish. Now I followed the procedure in 'Bread' by Hammelman…. BUT after loading it (just after scoring), my bread 'ripped' near the bottom of the bread - would you know why? I steamed it 3 times in the first 6-7 minutes approx…

Thanks again
Nazir

The people I know don't even know what a starter is!!I have had this starter for a couple of months and have devoted ALOT of time to it.I started it myself from rye that i ground myself every day.It is now white bread flour.I just ordered your live starter and will give that a try.Maybe your strain of yeast will perform better.I am also going to try your no knead method with my enamel coated dutch oven( it has no plastic knobs) and was wondering if I should flour or spray the inside to prevent sticking.Thanks again.
One more thing,my kitchen is about 66 degrees-do you think I should always keep my starter in the oven with light on?I am very new to sourdough baking but have read and tried Nancy Silverman's Le Brea Bakery book.Some things I don't get(like how to calculate h20 temps for my cold kitchen) so I'm looking for different perspectives.Sorry to babble but your the first person I have had to ask any questions!!

Hi Nazir.

I'm not sure why your bread ripped near the bottom. Sometimes I get "blowouts" like that and just assume that sometimes I get too much oven spring too fast. Maybe if I had let it rise a little more before baking, it would be avoided. I've never been concerned with it, but for a professional chef/baker, I can certainly understand the concern.

Hi Eric,

I made another loaf of NKB yesterday, and this time I remembered to reduce the amount of water by the amount of my starter. I also left the bowl on the counter in my quite cool kitchen, thinking that maybe the long time in the oven with the light on had overproofed the previous batches. I also bought a Lodge pre-seasoned Dutch oven - with my luck I would drop a cloche! So my dough was a little easier to handle and I was able to shape it into a ball. The loaf looked great, well risen and with a good crust which I could hear cracking as it cooled. That was the good news. The bad news is that it was still "gummy" inside although nice and holey and good tasting. Also the bottom was just about burnt so I don't think I could have cooked it any longer. Have to say my family weren't so picky when they came to supper and they took the leftovers home with them!
So now I am wondering whether it is my starter and I want to order some of the instant yeast from you to try that. I also wonder whether using parchment paper under the dough would help with the burning? Hope it isn't my starter as I sent some to my son in Paso Robles - in a plastic jar and 2 ziploc bags. Would hate to ruin my image if his bread doesn't rise. Thanks for letting me ramble, Ann

Hi Ann,

Thanks for the update. I think it can take a while to get used to the baking characteristics of a new baker. I'm talking about your new Dutch oven.

Based on what you're describing, the next thing I would try is reducing the temperature some (maybe 25 degrees or so) to hopefully avoid burning and bake longer to hopefully get past the gumminess.

Personally, I try to get a slight char on some of the crust. I really like the strong flavor of the slightly caramelized flour. But gummy can be kind of a drag if it's too gummy. Yours must not have been too bad.

I'm pretty certain your starter is not the culprit.

Onward and upward!

Eric

Hi, Eric….I'm new to the dance here but enjoying everything. Ive been baking a bit after a 20yr layoff so everything s new and interesting. I'm a sour dough freak. I wanted to tell Candy that bubbling starter doesn't count…it has to quadruple to raise a loaf. Keep feeding it till it does I have a new starter..Maggie Gleezer recipe that works great. My biggest problem is an oven that wont heat to 550 and wont hold the heat as the door is opened for steam. I do have a Sassafras long baker that works fine. I proof on a Silmat..stretch it out a bit rather than make a ball and dump it into the hot long baker. Also, the bottom thump test doesn't truly work, either. It takes a thermometer deep in the bread. Have been no-kneading since the Times story.

Hi Keith. Welcome back! I would certainly classify myself as a sourdough freak as well. Actually, maybe "snob" is more like it. A snob and an addict. I like to think I hide my snobbishness pretty well, but I make no effort to control my addiction.

HI,
I really enjoy the video demonstrations. It helps to nullify those nagging doubts, as to what is supposed to be happening, and the appearance of a good starter.
I do have a question about kneading my dough. I use rye or spelt flour, so I am not getting a fluffy loaf. I also get a great slightly sour, slightly sweet flavor. I just want to make sure I am kneading at the appropriate time.
I have been making my successful starter to the correct proportions for my recipe. Then I make the actual recipe, knead it for 5-8 minutes, and let it rise in a bowl overnight, 18-24 hours, then transfer to loaf pans, let rise 3-5 hours and bake. Is this a correct procedure for a kneading recipe? Does anyone have a good recipe that calls for kneading? I have made bread, non-sour with no problems, but I am not sure if and when to knead for a sour dough bread.
Thanks
Judy Ritsema

Hi Judy. I'm glad this is helping you.

With all the buzz around the no-knead bread lately, that subject has certainly dominated this website. But by far the most common types of bread recipes do call for kneading and the kneading comes in at the beginning when you are mixing all your ingredients together.
What you are doing sounds good to me.
Are you baking with just rye and spelt and no all purpose white flour at all?

I will definitely be adding traditional baking recipes and videos to this site. One hopefully before the end of this month that will involve kneading. No-knead is popular largely because of the ease but lots of people, including myself, like to work more "hands on" with the dough at least some of the time.

I'm not sure I really answered your question. I know most bread books are full of kneading recipes.

Eric

Hi Eric,
I have to tell you about my best sourdough NKB yet! Last week I baked a couple of doorstops which went straight to the dumpster. That was the same day I cut 160 squares of fabric 1 7/8" instead of 1 5/8", and I was ready to quit baking and quilting forever. But being a stubborn old woman (according to my sons) I fed my starter and added a little rye flour as a treat and got it really revved up. I must also say how much I love the scale, thank you for selling it. My 6 year old grandaughter helped me pat out the dough which was very manageable, and after the 15 minutes I placed it on a square of parchment paper and dropped it into the banneton. It rose nicely and I lifted the paper and dough into the heated stainless steel dutch oven. What a great tip, thanks to whoever came up with it! I can see now that dropping the risen dough deflated it too much - this loaf rose beautifully. I had time constraints so could have let it sit longer before shaping but I was very happy with the results. Took it for my son't birthday dinner and we warmed it - which of course meant we cut into a warm loaf. It was delicious, and I guess I'll keep baking. Tomorrow I plan on making Mike Avery's stretch and fold bread - have you tried it? Thanks again, Ann

Hi Ann.

Great story. Thanks for posting it. Travelling in s. Carolina at the moment and stealing a moment to peek at email etc. I don't know if I've tried Mike's stretch and fold exactly, but I have used the stretch and fold technique. It's a good one.

So glad your experience salvaged your baking aspirations.

Eric

Maybe it's not such a concern now that the weather's warming up, but just thought I'd mention something that has worked for me when my kitchen is on the cool side. I fill the tea kettle full, get the water boiling, then put the tea kettle in the oven along with covered bowl of bread dough. By morning the water has cooled down, of course, but it seems to have taken long enough that my dough is pretty happy.

I am new at starters. I followed a recipe, and I now have, at day 5, a pleasant, almost apple smelling frothy mixture.I'm confused about when and how to use the starter. Is there a preparation before baking? (ie I've read about proofing-but don't undertand). Does the starter have to double in volume before use? Or do you just go ahead, add the specified quantity of starter to your bread flour and go ahead and bake?

Hello Tatiana,

It sounds like you're ready to go. In which case you can just add the specified quantity according to the recipe.

Now you just need to keep your starter healthy with regular feedings. Every few days is good. As a general rule and as a test of your starter's health, if you were to feed your starter with an amount of flour and water equal to the amount of starter you are feeding, then the resultant mix should about double in volume. In other words, if you have 1/2 cup of starter on hand (after mixing it up to remove bubbles) and add 1/2 of flour plus 1/2 cup of water and mix that all together, then you should have about 1 cup of starter. Let that sit out at room temperature and it should come somewhat close to doubling in volume to about 2 cups. It will then shrink back down as it consumes its available nutrients, but at least you know your base starter is very healthy.

This would be just a test. I'm not saying it's necessary to double the starter each time you feed it. It's usually sufficient to just add some fresh flour and water once in a while to keep it happy. Maybe occasionally double the volume to give a particularly good feeding. With time you can just tell by the look and feel what your starter needs.

Eric

Thanks Eric-this has been very helpful! And just as a note, when I got home yesterday, the starter had doubled-(we had fed it earlier), and its the first real doubling we've see-so I guess thats a good test sign. So thanks for clarifying all this! Tatiana

Excellent!

Eric, we made our first loaf of rye with our new rye sourdough starter. We added 1 cup starter, 2 cups white flour, 1 cup rye. The loaf took about 8 hours for the first rise, and about 4 for the second. It had a lovely texture, wonderful crust-but is a touch on the too sour side. I understand that long rise times can contribute to excess sourness, so we cut the first rise to 4 hours-but the same flavour emerged. I can't cut it further, because it does take long to rise. Suggestions?

Hi Tatiana,

This should be an inspiration to all the people who are trying to make their bread MORE sour.

As far as making it less sour without having to cut the proofing time - maybe try using white starter instead of rye. Or half rye starter and half white starter. Just a guess.

Thanks, we'll give it a shot. By the way, as I am new to bread making, does proof time mean the time it takes to rise?

Yes. Either before or after you shape the dough for baking.

Eric: This is the coolest site I have seen on bread. I am off again, on again with baking bread. The no-knead is intriguing. My attempts have been too wet. Read a comment today about throwing out the old flour. Mine has been in the freezer for over a year do you think that is the problem. I have 2 emails this is the one at work. but if you answer today, I'd like to get it
I'm in Austin TX

Hi Kay,

Thanks!

If the flour in your freezer is regular white flour (as apposed to whole wheat) it should be fine. There can be a problem with whole wheat flour spoiling at room temperature because of the oil in the germ exposed to air. But even whole wheat flour will keep well in the freezer as long as it was fresh to start with.

So, my usual long winded way of saying I think you'll be okay.

Yipee! I ordered starter & other STUFF on Fri. Did not expect to see it arrive before next Fri. It came today, Mon.
I'm fixin' to revive my starter. I'm sure I will have questions but will let you know how it goes.

Appreciate the fact that you are willing to share your knowledge.
Thanks
Kay

Hi Eric,
I have been baking with my starter now for about 2 months and it seems to be working out pretty well. My last bread (half whole wheat), though, was a real failure. It looked ok after rising. I dumped it directly from my bowl onto the hot baking stone at about 450°. But in the first 15 minutes it started elevating from the bottom like crazy. By the end it had turned into a mushroom!!!
I could barely slice it, huge hunks from the bottom of the "stem" kept coming off and it wasn't even done in the very center.
One thing I did differently this time was I kept spraying the loaf with water while baking, trying to get a thick crust. It was thick all right, but didn't even adhere to the loaf and chipped all off.
Even my husband who is very encouraging about my bread efforts didn't want to eat it. What went wrong???

Thanks,
Sarah

Do I feed the starter BEFORE I put it with the other ingredients to bake bread? This makes the most sense to me since it rises after I feed it. Perhaps I take the starter out to prepare the recipe, then feed what's left so I have more later??? I have great looking starter (thanks for the super easy pineapple method!) but now I don't know what to do with it between keeping it in the fridge and baking with it. I've watched the videos and if I'm missing it, I apologize. I don't know what to do with the starter when I'm ready to bake. Is it immediate or does it have to rise?

Also, can I make a good batch of sourdough in the bread machine? I made one loaf with my starter, putting the ingredients in the bread machine on a delay time cycle. The loaf tasted great but didn't rise very well.

The link says there is no such group or it no longer exists. Can anyone else chime in who may have made sourdough bread in the bread machine? I would love to find a way to help it rise better.

I fixed the link I think. Refresh and try it again.

Eric,
What type of container should I use for the starter, should it be airtight, ceramic, glass, plastic, etc?

Is there anything different I might have to do for a higher altitude (Denver)?

Thanks,
Kyle

Hi Kyle,

Ceramic, glass or plastic is fine for storing sourdough starter. I've heard that metal is not desirable. This may not be true but might as well play it safe and avoid it. (It is alright to use metal utensils to stir starter however).

You definitely do NOT want an airtight seal. Allow for at least a small air flow to avoid having the starter container explode.

I'm not aware of any adjustments you'll have to make in managing your starter in Denver. The adjustments will come in when you actually bake the bread.

Eric

Hi Eric
My starter is great. I think I have learned to keep a small amount going strong. When I decide to bake I add the flour & water in large amounts not spoonfuls. I bought the book Classic Sourdoughs. Got past the bricks, but what makes crust hard - not flakey. Am using KitdhenAid. Could I be beating it too long? Since the KA is powerful I have not been kneading it after turning it out, letting it rest a short time, forming loaf and letting it rise. When you squeeze the "artisian" bread in Sam's or Costco the loaf/crust feels hard. Mine is made from bread flour, and whole wheat or rye. Crusty would be nice. Do you have any suggestions? This is a learning experience; will appreciate any advice. Kay in TX

Hello Eric,

I live in Oregon and I have started a starter using 1/2 cup flour, 1/2 cup milk at room temperature, 1/8 cup sugar, and 1/8 tsp. of yeast…

I first made my starter about 2 weeks ago and I had it sitting out on my counter for 12 days feeding it every other day and it would bubble up a lot, but it never doubled in size, it would bubble up a lot, and then deflate. On the fifth day I finally noticed hooch forming in the starter.

My question is, why is my starter rising and then deflating? I've also noticed that once the hooch forms on the top, it will stop bubbling and rising all together…
Does it sound like to you that my starter is healthy?

I tried making a starter last spring and within 2 days it had a lot of hooch, but the whole time it would never bubble, and after about 5 days of feeding it everyday, I attempted to make bread and it was horrible… It didn't turn out at all…

So, someone at a local culinary school told me to try it with a very small amount of yeast in it because in Oregon we don't get very much wild yeast I suppose…

This time has been more of a success, my only concern is that my starter doesn't really double in size, it rises a little bit, but then deflates… I've never made starters before, and I am just a little paranoid that I screwed something up.

Let me know what you think!

.

Thanks Eric,

I appreciate the advice very much… I have a question. I fed my starter last night and it did double in size, and I made some sourdough pancakes this morning for breakfast, which were excellent…

My question is, well I have two questions… My starter doesn't really smell sour, it has almost a beer smell and a yeast smell. Will my sourdough starter get more sour tasting and smelling as it ages?

My next question is, since the yeast has established in my starter, can I start feeding it with water and flour even though it was started with flour and milk and sugar? Or will that ruin the starter? Let me know what you think, I'm sorry to ask so many questions!

Stephanie

Your questions are good.

Your starter might get more sour with time but that doesn't necessarily translate to more sour tasting bread. There are a bunch of factors that go into controlling the amount of sour you get. I'm still trying to figure them out!

You should start feeding with just flour and water. It definitely will not hurt the starter. I think it will help it. Although your starter sounds like it's doing fine now.

Eric, I received your live starter yesterday afternoon, and fed it today for the second time with King Arthur unbleached AP and boiled tap water. After a couple of hours it has doubled in size. When I opened the bag to have a peek there was a very strong vinegar aroma which was quite pleasing. I can't wait to bake with this starter. I should be able to mix up a batch of dough tomorrow with enough starter left to feed it again and keep things going.

Thanks,

Ken

Hello,
I'm afraid my starter has lost its punch. Not great timing as I'm practically counting the hours until my La Cloche baker arrives tomorow. Here is what I've got. About two weeks ago my budding "pineapple method" starter was at a standstill. To avoid frustration I stuck it in the fridge. A few days had passed when I noticed some hooch had formed on top. Having learned that this indicates that the sugars are all used up, I took that as encouragement that it did have some life to it. Discarding all but a half cup, I followed your instructions for reviving a dormant starter. Sure enough it came back even better. Over the following week it doubled well after feedings and began to foam up. It also took on a pleasant nutty slightly sour odor. I knew that I was on to something when my French husband took a whiff of it and said that it brought back memories of his childhood!
Last night, in anticipation of baking, I combined 2 cups of refrigerated starter, 2 cups of U/B org. flour and 1 3/4 cups of filtered water. This made a massive amount of starter which I then divided into two containers so as have enough room for doubling. This morning I found that, aside from some bubbling action, the starter had not budged. At a loss for what to do I am tempted to give it another "time out" in fridge. I'm not sure what I did wrong other than I may have forgotten to stir the air out of the starter before calculating the feeding.
So here are my questions….If it was given proportionately too much food, is there any way to salvage it? Did I really need to refresh (ruin) it last night or could I have mixed it into the dough straight from the fridge? What about the method of discarding some before feeding? This fixed it before. Thanks very much for your help.

Hi Naomi,

Gosh, I can't see that you did anything that would harm the starter. Quite the contrary. Refreshing it was a good thing to do. I don't think you over fed it, and even if you did, it would just take longer than usual to do its rising thing. A professional baker at King Arthur Flour tells people to quadruple the amount of starter with each feeding.

It sounds like you left your starter on the counter overnight after feeding it. I don't suppose it could have risen and then settled back down by morning? I doubt that actually.

I have found that very occasionally, and for no reason that I've been able to find, it just takes a seemingly inordinate amount of time for the rising action to kick in after feeding.

In any case, it seems extremely unlikely you harmed your starter. Given your time sensitive situation and the fact that you now have a ton of starter, you could split that up and try a few different things (whatever you can think of) to see if one takes better than the other. Feed again, put one back in the fridge, keep another out, leave one portion unchanged.

Definitely let me know what happens. This is interesting. I'm going to be taking off for a few hours so if you have any more questions, I won't be around to respond for a while (not that I would know the answer anyway).

Good luck.

Eric

Thank you so much for a wonderful website. I love sourdough bread but I find it to be time consuming, the way you do it is so much easy that you can really enjoy it without filling guilty for loosing so much time. I have a question that I hope you can help me with. I used to bake regularly until I started working. Now I do not see how to manage the time for the rising of the bread etc. Is there a way that I could mix the dough and refrigerate till I come home from work then let it rest from 6 pm to 8 am put back in the refrigerator and bake after work? I could also ask my husband to put in the fridge at noon, that way it would have the 18 hours. I really hope this can work. Thank you so much for all your help in baking. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving weekend.
Maria

Hi Eric,

Thank you so much for your help. I got my bread out of the oven 5 minutes ago. It looks great, I could say that it had more oven spring that making it the other way. Too bad I am going to sleep without trying it. There is always tomorrow.

I refrigerated the mixed dough yesterday at 7:30 p.m. Took to room temperature this morning. I started around 7 P.M reshaping, etc.

I could not be happier with the results. Let you know how it taste, but now we know that you can go to work and bake bread at the same time. Makes me happy.

Thank you again for your great help.

About 10 years ago I was given a starter by the Chef at the Through The Seasons restaurant in Soldatna, Alaska, and have been enjoying it ever since and have always kept it in the fridge between uses and it has never failed me. However, last year we were travelling a lot and I was unable to use the starter for a few months. This week when I used it in my usual way (stirred it, put 1 1/2 c starter and 1 1/2 c flour and 1 c warm water and set it aside to work overnight; next morning I put 1 1/2 c of the starter back into my starter container, added 3 T sugar and 1 t salt and 2-4 cups bread flour to the bread I was making, stirred it and kneaded it until it was elastic and would take no more flour. I then covered it lightly and set it aside–out of a draft–and let it double. Then I punched it down, shaped it into two loafs, covered it lightly, and let it rise until double–or almost (it never did completely double). I baked it in my gas oven @ 350 for 40 minutes which has been absolutely perfect in the past. However, this time it didn't rise well at all and doesn't have the lovely "sour" flavor.

My question is this: can I just let the starter sit on my counter until tonight, again put my 1 1/2 c starter, 1 1/2 c bread flour and 1/c warm water into my usual bread maiing tupperware bowl and complete the process as above? Will that eventually renew my starter to it's former glory??? Thank you so much for your website–it has given me heart to keep trying.

Hi Norma,

It sounds like maybe you just needed to refresh your starter with 2 or 3 feedings before attempting to bake with it again since it had been idle for so long. It must be pretty hearty to have worked as well as it did after a few months hiatus. I think if you do what you're thinking (feed it again), it will indeed be restored to it's former glory.

Hello Eric,
I am new to sourdough baking and found your video on managing starters to be very helpful. I have one starter that began life as bakers yeast and another one that I started from orange juice and whole wheat flour. I prefer the latter but I find it to be somewhat slow. Is that normal for scratch starters? Keep up the good work. I look forward to viewing some of your other videos.

Hi Bill. I'm not sure what's normal and not for different kinds of starters. The ones I've used all perform about the same.

Hi Eric

Great video! This is my first attempt at cultivating a starter - using Nancy Silverton's La Brea bakery book.
The starter started bubbling, but never did double in volume, AND I have been been feeding it religiously. Tried using some to bake, but the dough never really rose. Any suggestions? I tried it twice, with same results. Any ideas? I have some starter that I saved in the fridge, but threw the rest out in frustration(after multiple cups of flour. I have no trouble making with commercial yeast, but would really like to try my hand at sourdough.
Thanks.

My one attempt at Nancy Silverton's method failed too. I think her method is more trouble than it's worth. I recommend you try Debra Wink's Pineapple Juice Technique. It's much easier and probably has a better chance of succeeding.

See: http://www.breadtopia.com/make-your-own-sourdough-starter

The low-rise may not be the starter/yeast strain, but the time being allowed to rise. 2-hours is a general guideline, but I've found it sometimes take twice as long to double in size than the standard 1.5-2 hour rule of thumb (and the slower they rise, the better the flavor)! I check it at an hour or two, and if it looks like it is on the slow boat, I ignor it a little longer. I have taken to proofing in a cold oven with the lights on which sometimes speeds things up a bit.

I just made the no-knead bread recipe from CooksIllustrated where they call for adding beer (about 1/3 of the liquid) and a T of vinegar. DELICIOUS! I've taken to adding a bit of beer and vinegar to my yeast pizza dough and it has really, really improved the flavor and texture. I'm going to try a test loaf with my next sourdough batch. Stay tuned.

I also just pulled a Cooks Illustrated "almost no knead" loaf out of the oven. It is indeed very good. I'll certainly be doing more of these and your idea of adding the beer & vinegar to pizza dough sounds great. I'll try to get a video done soon for anyone interested.

Thought I'd add a couple pics…

Oh My Gosh!! Can I just say thank you, thank you, thank you. I am very impressed with your thoroughness and skill, and cannot wait to try making my bread again. Your website was all I needed to lift my hopes up. ( I killed my starter yesterday. it was very sad..) Hope you have the Bread of Life this Christmas, thanks again!
Katie

Watching your videos, it looked like you did not use the rubber gasket that comes with the jars with the wire bales. Is that right? I ordered some starter from a different website and also the jar, which I thought I was supposed to use the gasket. Then, another starter said to not airtight the starter because it would explode. Which is correct? Do the different starters require different storage techniques? Thanks, JO

Hi Jo. That's right, I don't have the gasket on so there's a little air flow so no pressure build up from the CO2 gas from fermentation. I think all starters are the same as far as storage goes.

We just recently received your sourdough starter and noticed that you reccommended using distilled water when activating because of the chlorine. My question is, once it is activated and working like it's supposed to, is it still necessary to continue using distilled water or is it ok to use tap water which is city water with chlorine.

Thank you,
Peggy Leachman
Peggy2265@comcast.net

Hi Peggy,

Chlorine is put in municipal water to kill harmful microorganisms. Yeast (in the sourdough) is a microorganism and I doubt if the chlorine can distinguish the good guys from the bad. Having said that, I know a lot of people use tap water with their starters and get by fine. I recommend purified water to be on the safe side and insure you're getting the best results possible.

Fortunately, getting chlorine out of tap water is an easy thing. If you don't want to hassle with distilled or spring water, or water run through a Brita kind of filter, then you can just let a pitcher of tap water sit overnight and the chlorine will evaporate on its own. So maybe just do that.

While I was away for the holidays I forgot my starter out for a few days. Made a call and had it place in the frig. When I removed it there was a white and black mold like substance on top. I removed this and fed the remainder a couple of time and it is growing great. So I know my yeast is active but I am concerned about any harmful bacteria that is present.
By the way I received the whisk and la cloche in October, what nice products both have added to the ease and quality of my baking. I just wish I could bake more than one loaf at a time.

thanks

Hi Nick. As long as your starter looks, feels and smells like it did before the mold issue, then it's fine. It's not unusual for starter to get moldy even in the fridge if left unattended long enough. And it's usually easy to rectify just through several good feedings.

What if it's left out of the frig for a few weeks..still smells good/like yeast….should I throw it away?
DL Dove

I would throw away all but about 1/4 cup, then feed that with 1/2 cup flour and 1/3 cup water and see if it shows signs of life. Then I would feed it a few more times, each time at least doubling the volume you're starting with (so you may want to throw some away each time before feeding so you don't end up with a ton of starter). After several feedings, there's a good chance your starter will be in good shape again.

Hi Eric,

Thanks again for sending the order. Everything arrived great and have been having a ball baking bread.

SITUATION: I got some starter from a professional bakery. It was a HUGE plastic bucket, and super thick. The owner works with it in a 5 gallon Hobart mixer. I have fed it 4 times according to your videos, and all I get is a bundch of bubbles, but no vigerous action. It never goes above the line I put on the jar to note progress. I use bread dough and tap water. Do you have any recommendations?

QUESTION: Any thoughts? Should I get another starter?

Thanks in advance,

Richard

Hi Richard,

It should be pretty easy to revive that starter. Is your tap water chlorinated? If so, use purified water of some kind. Other than that, I don't know. If you're using too much water, the starter can be healthy but not rise much. But if you're using equal WEIGHTS of flour and water, and the starter is healthy, you would get the rise you're looking for.

Hi Eric,
I wanted to let you know that the fresh starter I ordered from you arrived in great shape, and I made the best loaf of bread with it I have ever made. The flavor was out of this world with a lovely lactic twang.

My problem is that the starter, after several weeks in my care, has lost the lactic twang. I have been feeding it religiously as you recommend, and storing it in my fridge between weekly baking days, but I can't seem to bring the twang back. It bubbles up well and raises the dough perfectly, but I've messed up something, and I'd like to figure out what… Do you have any wisdom?

Thanks so much! Julia

Hi Julia,

I can sympathize with your situation. Sourdough starter seems like it has a mind of its own sometimes. This might sound funny, but you may be taking too good care of it. Really fresh, well fed starter can be pretty mild smelling and tasting compared to starter that hasn't been fed for a while and generally unattended. The lactic acid builds up over time when left alone.

But even that may not necessarily help all that much. More of the taste of your final loaf comes from all the variables that go into the entire baking process than just from how you manage the starter. Getting just the taste you are after on a consistent basis can be a confounding experience.

Professional bakers take great pains to control every aspect of their baking conditions to be sure of getting consistent results. It's not so easy at home. A slight change in temperature or humidity can alter your outcome, even when you are being really precise about everything else like exact ingredient measurements and proofing times.

I'm sure others can contribute better advise on this subject, especially considering I didn't really provide much ;).

Eric,
I made a rye starter about 2 weeks ago with just rye flour and water. It started within a day or two and smelled great for the first week while I fed it about every day. Now it has developed a nail polish remover smell. Should I be worried, should I start over, is it ok to try a loaf with?

I've never made a rye flour starter but nail polish remover doesn't sound very good. Maybe someone else has an idea on this one.

Eric,

Darn….I used tap water to revive the starter I got from Freinds of Carl's. I missed it if it was mentioned on your video about revivng starter and there is no mention of it in the directions that came with the starter. So I am up to lets see… probably 3/4s cup of tap water in my starter with the equal amount of flour. I am wondering if I should be concerened about the starter or just make sure I use bottled water from this point on.

I'm sure the amount of chlorine must be minimal but I thought I heard somewhere chlorine does not loose its poetency.

The starter seems to be doing fine but I would hate to think I have effected the potency of it. I'm thinking that the next feeding maybe I'll go with 1 cup flour and 3/4 cup bottled water. Then after that has had a day at room temperature I could use or dump 1/2 of it say a cup, and then refeed the remainder always using bottled water.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Dave M.
Fresno, Ca

As long as it does come to life you'll be fine. Any trace of it will be gone in practically no time.

Hi Eric,

Thanks for such a great site and also for your store. I love my new dough whisks and scraper! They came within 3 days - wow! Great for an impatient person like me! Now I have a some questions as I get really into baking bread.

Re sourdough: My starter instructions are to remove from starter from fridge, throw out 1 cup, then add one cup flour and 1/2 cup water. After a few hours, remove 1 cup starter to bake with, again add flour/water, wait 2-4 hours and refrigerate. I hate having to throw out a cup each time I start it! And the timing of waiting 2-4 hours after the second feed is tough because I'd like to put up my bread late night right before going to bed so it can do first rise overnight. Almost all of my recipes call for 1 cup fed starter. Could I just one time skip the second add/wait and instead refrigerate the "remnant" left after removing my one cup fed starter. Then next time just feed and use and again refrigerate the remnant?
Also, I find the starter very hard to work with. You say to use almost the same weight flour/water. Could I increase the water if I want a wetter dough and simply adjust my recipe with slightly less water? Is there an advantage to a particular thickness of starter?

Lastly, I have two "formula" questions. Is there a formula for amount of flour to make a full loaf in a 9×5 pan? Most of my recipes use about 5 cups flour, and I find they just don't fill my nice stoneware pans with a nice tall loaf. I finally realized it's maybe because I'm not using enough dough rather than a problem with my technique.

Also, is there a formula for amount of dried spice per cup flour to flavor bread well?

Thank you!

Thanks for the very helpful video. I've read a lot of different websites about sourdough starter, but your video instruction is so much more helpful than merely writing about starter.

Thanks David!

Hello Eric,
Have been visiting this site for a long time Just love it even if there seems to be something amiss with your videos. In the left column where videos are listed the sound is so low I can only get the odd word. I tuned in today and when I watched the Video of Nate low and behold… SOUND and from that was able to tap in to your other videos listed at the bottom of that one ie:no knead but I need your Sourdough one. I know I know I am long winded My husband always says I go back to the beginning of time when I am trying to say something.LOL But you have to have that backgroung info first as this is for two reasons one to tell you you have a problem with the sound portion of your videos and the other is Sourdough.
I can create a starter. In Fact I have no problem catching the wild little beasties. They multiple like crazy reminding me of Gremlins. My problem is I have been on every site from here to eternity and back and I still can't get the info of when do I use it.Do I feed it and let it set until it starts to fall and then add my ingredients for bread? Or what. When recipes call for a sponge when do I add it before I feed it ?????? I can't tune in to your Video NO SOUND…..HELP!!!!

Hi Sherry,

I haven't heard from anyone else on video problems and they work fine on my computer. So don't know what to tell you there.

Generally sourdough starter is at its peak a few hours after you feed it. A few hours at room temperature, that is. After that, I like to use it within a day. But I've used starters for baking that haven't been fed for a couple days with good results and could have probably gone longer still. So there's a fairly wide window of opportunity for what can work.

Thanks so much Eric for getting back so quickly.I really appriciate it.So its not that fragile a thing.???? So long as its alive and at room temperature basically

That's right… and been fed at least kinda recently.

Hi:
I watched your very informative video, and I still have a few more questions. I got some starter from a friend and have been having a hard time renewing the starter. Currently, it does have some bubbles but is clearly in the relatively-flat-almost-dead stage. I just found out that the starter I was given had yeast in it; does this mean that my efforts to revive it will be in vain? I'm trying to keep the water-flour proportions as you've prescribed; what is the optimal amount of starter to use? Half-cup? One tablespoon? Or does it matter? Also, when I'm feeding the starter, I'm unclear whether the container should be covered or not. Also, as I'm doing these repeated feedings, can the starter stay out of the fridge (i.e., for several days)?
Thanks for your help–
Torbie, just-starting bread starter starter

Thank you so much for your prompt reply.
Yes, I meant that the starter my friend gave me, she'd made with commercial yeast.
As I'm having to continually feed this little batch, as it was/is quite weak, is it best to wait just the 3-4 hours between feedings, or is it better to 'allow' up to 24 hours between feedings (especially if I'm seeing minimal evidence of the starter growing)?
And is it critical to use an exact proportion of water and flour, or are your quantity recommendations approximate?
Thanks again.
Torbie

I would allow up to the 24 hours. Sometimes I've noticed that when a starter is weak, it just takes a long time for the yeast population to get going and if you feed it too often, it's difficult for it to "get a leg up" and show any progress.

Everyone's got their own idea of what a "good" proportion is. I like equal weights flour and water (100% hydration or about 2/3 c water per cup flour) because it's easier to see the rise after feeding and it's still liquid enough to be easy to spoon out and it's more likely to match what a recipe might call for (in terms of hydration level) than a very wet or very dry starter.

Hi again:
Could you please tell me what recipe you use that calls for 2 cups of starter?
I'm feeding my starter and can't stand to throw any away if possible!
Thanks–
Torbie

Torbie - Classic Sourdoughs by Ed Wood has quite a few recipes that call for 2 cups of starter. I highly recommend it so you'll have plenty of options to make good use of LOTS of starter.

Anyone out there have any recipes and/or experience using sourdough starter for the batter for on-the-griddle English muffins?

Thanks—

Torbie
San Francisco

Just reviewed your Maintaining the Starter video. Question: after you fed the starter, left at room temperature, and it became bubbly and doubled in size, do you then stir it down before putting it back in the refrigerator, or before you bake with it? You mentioned a favorite recipe of yours that uses two cups of starter. Which one is that?

Hi Erika,

I don't stir it down before putting it back in the fridge, although it wouldn't hurt to do so. I do stir it down before I bake with it only so I'm measuring it in the stirred down state each time.

Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdoughs has quite a few recipes in it that call for 2 cups of starter. One of my favorites in that book is a rye he calls Swedish Limpa.

I believed you mentioned that one should use a jar/container with a loosly fitting lid after feeding the sourdough starter with water and flour. I did so and the starter expanded (as it should) and spilled out of the jar causing a bit of a mess. Is there a problem with using a tightly fitting jar lid to prevent the spillage or will I have an explosion in my kitchen? (My wife would shoot me!)
Thanks. Your website is great.
John