Whole Grain Sourdough

This bread is wonderful! I just tasted the results, moist and delicious! One problem I had though is that the dough did not rise in my fridge, it was also hard as a rock after being in the fridge. It rose beautifully at room temp though. So, I guess my fridge setting is just too cold, although I even had it as far from the freezer as possible. So, those of you out there with cold fridges, beware!

Excellent bread though, I will make this one again and again. I love the grain combination.

Thanks again Eric!

Kalindi

Eric,

Great website, great recipe. However, when I made it I thought the dough was a litle too wet so I reduced the water. Then I noticed that you say to add 274g (7.75oz) of water to the dough. I think there is a numerical error here because 7.75oz is 220g and 274g is 9.6oz. I used the 'g' units when I made the bread. Based on my notion that the dough was a little too wet with 274g added to the dough, I'd guess the correct measurement is 7.75oz = 220g. Do you agree?

Thanks,

Tim

Eric,

I just rewatched the video and confirmed that you meant 274g. You even mention 1.25c (i.e., ~10oz). So, my assumption that you meant 7.75oz was incorrect. I also forgot that I had doubled the amount of starter (I wanted it more sour) which would account for me reducing the amount of water. Sorry for the false alarm.

I've made this loaf 3 times and am currently part way through my 4th. Each loaf has tasted better so I guess I'm getting the hang of it. I have friends that are 'whole wheat' gurus and they think it is great.

Thanks again,

Tim

Hi Tim,

Good catch on my conversion goof, I've corrected it. Thanks.

Regarding increasing the starter for more sour, I think you're actually more likely to get more sour by decreasing the starter so it prolongs the dough fermentation time. The time it takes to rise. Although I'm not sure how well that would work either. Of course experimenting as you are is the way to go. And taking notes.

Hi Eric, I have the dough sitting in the refrigerator and I found it was exactly as you said, slightly tacky. I know that my frig. is pretty cold so I hope I won't have a problem with rock hard dough tomorrow. I have a question for you; I want to mail a loaf from here in WA to a friend in San Diego, and I am hoping that your whole grain loaf improves after a day or two like the Poilane is supposed to. Do you have an opinion? I know you thought the Poilane might have been better eaten the same day. it is definitely Fall here after a pretty cool summer. I think we got 6 small ripe tomatoes! I planted several plants in my son's veggie garden and we have lots of lovely green ones, but fried green tomatoes aren't exactly healthy food. Cheers, Annie

Hi Annie.

I'm glad you're trying this recipe. Regarding your cold fridge, I hope you find that the dough rises a good amount while in there. If not, you'll need to give it extra time tomorrow morning. If it hasn't risen as much as you think it should have, it should continue to rise while sitting out at room temp.

It seems to me that most of the time, and especially with breads that are mostly whole grain, the flavor is better the second day but then starts to drop off from there. Not sure how Poilane could think day 3 was optimum. Please let me know how it turns out. I have my fingers crossed!

Fall's coming fast here too. I love it.

Hi Eric, the bread is out of the oven and smells great. I found that it was indeed like a rock before bedtime so I left it on the counter as my house is very cool these days. It had risen to the top of the mixing bowl by this morning and was really easy to shape into a boule. I think I may have overproofed it in the banneton - placed it on the preheated stone and covered it with a big stainless mixing bowl. It spread out more than your loaf and the bottom is very dark - but, the top crust is great and the scoring perfect if I do say so! So now I have to wait before I can check the crumb, always hard to do. I will definitely be making this loaf again, Annie

Sounds great. I'll bet the crumb is just fine. I like the flavor of the crust at the bottom when it's dark like that.
Enjoy.

Eric, I just have to tell you about the second loaf of this wonderful bread that I made. I used white whole wheat flour but everything else was the same and I proofed the loaf in the banneton lined with parchment paper. Then I was able to slash and gently lower the loaf into my stainless steel dutch oven. It did spread slightly but not as much as using the stone. The loaf was beautiful! I mailed it to San Diego on Tuesday and my friends received it today and it got rave reviews. I had suggested they might want to cut it into quarters and freeze some but they don't think it will last that long. It cost nearly $12 to mail so it will only be for special occasions, but it was well worth it to make them happy. Who needs Poilane? Ann

Hi Ann,

It's so nice to hear your story with its happy ending. Thanks for the update, Ann.

Eric

Hi Frankie,

Thanks. Your site is really inspiring. AWESOME stove! I've been to your site before through a link from the Yahoo brick oven group no doubt. But didn't see the video at the bottom. AWESOME video!

(check it out folks: http://www.deltabluesfestival.net/pizza_oven.htm)

It never even occurred to me to include the baker's percentages on these recipes. They didn't come with the recipe I received. I'd love to say I'll figure it out and post it, but given my schedule lately I'm afraid I'd never get to it.

Look forward to hearing of your results.

Ok…. Bread has been cooked… and it came out great.

I noticed that no steam was required but I injected steam in the oven prior to cook. On a baking stone at 485 degrees… I cooked for 30 min… then 10 minutes at 450 degrees.

Bread was great… proofed for 6 hours but should have let it go a little further… it was still a little springy before cooked, and dense after cooked. looking for more open crumb… so I will try a wetter formula next time.

Very happy. can't wait to try more recipes.

BTW… here are the percentages that I came up with:

Biga=
Flour 100%
Water 84.75
Starter 50.85

Dough (without Biga Percentages separated)=

bread flour 100%
rye flour 34.00%
spelt Flour 68.00%

Flour Total 505.00
(below calculated off 505 flour)
Water 54.26%

Salt 2.57%
Biga 110.10%

Open to any and all changes and suggestions…

Frankie G

Hello,
New to baking bread. I love this bread. Thanks for the great videos. There are very well done. Ann said she used "white wheat flour" was this in place of the bread flour? or the whole wheat. I really would like to make this a whole grain has well as multi-grain.
Thanks again for the wonderful instruction.

Nick

Hi Nick, Eric asked me to let you know that I used the King Arthur white whole wheat flour instead of the whole wheat called for in the initial mix. I use it a lot and I think this time it was because I didn't have enough regular whole wheat on hand. I also like to use spelt flour sometimes - see Eric's no-knead recipes. Glad you found Breadtopia, Annie

Breadtopia reader, Mary Sue, joined the fan club for this bread. Here's what she had to say…

"Eric, I just tried my loaf of whole grain sourdough…incredible! I think it deflated slightly on transfer to the Dutch Oven, but it still rose well and had incredible crust–crackling and everything! Attached are 2 pics, so you can see….
 
My husband, a real foodie and general curmudgeon, said it was the best bread he's had in a long time….I know we'll be making it again!

I am definetly going to try making this bread. I do not have a bread basket for proofing so should a well floured and towel lined bowl be ok? Also, I do not have a lacloche.Could I just use a parchment lined cookie sheet covered with a roasting pan lid? Would you also add any steam to the oven by ways of spraying the top of the dough, sides of the oven, or a pan of water on the bottom for the first few minutes of baking? The baking temp. also seems really high! Anything higher than 350 C would burn my bread in my oven. Could I reduce the temp., but bake for longer?
Thanks,
Christine (Ontario, Canada)

Hi Christine,

A well floured towel lined bowl is fine.

You can certainly try anything you want for simulating a cloche. You might keep your eyes open for a cast iron Dutch oven at a garage sale or something. They work really well and you might find one for a few dollars.

As for oven temperature, 485 Fahrenheit is about 250 C which is what this recipe calls for. Would that work in your oven?

I mixed the dough in my new model Bosch for about 3 min on speed 1 and 4 on speed 2. I checked by the window pane method and stopped when it stretched nicely. The doguh was fairly wet with temperature or 74 degrees.

I put it in the refer and after about 8 hours there was no movement. My refer temp was 42 degrees. I took the dough out and put it on the counter. It is cold here at night and the heat is set to come on at 58 degrees. SO the dough was about 58-60 degrees over night.

This morning the was a fair amount of rise, but nothing like the rise you show in the video. The dough was very workable. I folded it and rested 15 minutes and then formed a boule. The dough was a bit tacky and was very easy to shape.

My question is this: Is the 42 degrees in the refer too cold for this type of dough?

Thanks for your help

Others have reported the same thing with the dough not rising in the fridge and I can only think it must just be because the fridge is colder than mine. Trouble is, I've never measured the temp so I can't tell what works or if that's even the cause or if it's the starter, or both maybe. It's hard to isolate the variables sometimes.

After about 2 1/2 hours of final proof the dough was billowy and very sticky. When I tried the finger test the hole did not remain. I was concerned about over proofing so I put it in the Le Cloche, quickly scored it and closed the oven Baked it 25 min at 485 degrees, uncovered for another 11 minutes to final internal temp of 208 degrees.

The bread spread out to the full diameter of the Le Cloche base and was only about 3" high at the center. Did not look any thing like your bread.

I have some other starters and will start to use one of them to see if the starter is the source of the problems.

How can I post a picture when I send in a note? The picture tells a better story than a verbal description.

Thanks again.

2 1/2 hours is a very long final proof. So it might have over proofed. Also, if the dough is very wet it will pancake out and you end up with something more like foccacia. Could have been both things too. Maybe a different starter would make a difference. Keep us posted.

Yippeee….just ordered my LaCloche and some other goodies,and have two starters goin. One I made with dark rye flour and beer, and the other with white whole wheat flour and pineapple juice. The little darlins' are showing progress this morning! Now the hardest part is waiting for my baker to get here!

Dear Eric: Thank you for Breadtopia and your helpful videos, information, and supplies. I found your website after attending a local bread workshop and wanting to begin making my own sourdough bread again after a lapse of many years. My expectation however, was to challenge myself to make a wonderful complex starter that might yield a superior whole grain loaf, reminiscent the bread we bought weekly from a boulanger at the marche in Aix En Provence when we lived there in the 90's. Due t to your excellent website and kind manner, and alot of patience and determination, I can gratefully report much success. I have three starters that I am happily experimenting with. I made the No Knead sourdough bread with several flour combinations and happy comments from my family. . The sourdough pizzas (goat cheese margaritas) have finally given my husband the flat tangy crusts he prefers, and today's Whole Grain Sourdough is unbelievable! It is so very close to what we would buy in France. I used the long cloche to bake it in, and I baked it at 485 for 30 minutes, took the cover off and baked it for just 5 minutes more. It was done perfectly! I would send you a picture of the beautiful results if I could figure out how to attach it to this comment space. I know I will have questions as I go along, but thank you for giving this gift of breadmaking back into our lives. Namaste, Stephanie

I tried another route by changing to a different starter and a different flour blend. I ended up with another flat but really tasty bread. I controlled the retarding temperature by keeping the dough in the garage for 8 hours. I monitored the temp and it was around 55 F. I then let it sit in the oven with just the light turned on for about 8 hours.

I had carefully calculated the hydration to be 80%. The dough was so slack that I put it in the bottom of the La Cloche for the final rise. I heated only the bell.

I baked it for 30 minutes at 500 F. and then uncovered for 12 minutes. There was only minor oven spring.

I am going to back off the 80% hydration and see if that was the problem.

This was my formula
150 g multi-grain flour ( Made my putting 7 grain cereal in food processor)
175 g All Purpose flour
175 g Harvest King flour
2 tsp salt
50 g "1847" starter (100% hydration)
395 g water ( taking in to account the 25 g water in the starter

WOW ERIC!! Thank you, thank you so much! I ordered my LaCloche on the 3rd. and it came all safe and sound this afternoon (6th). I am thrilled. Now that's what I call service! My whole wheat/pineapple juice starter has doubled since I fed it this morning, so I'm going to use it now and make this Poilane recipe you have here. Thanks again for the wonderful service, and this terrific website. Maggie

Hi Eric, your pineapple starter sits in my fridge, coming out for feeding and use. I have been asked to make sourdough challah for Christmas (my DIL loves challah and liked my loaf, made with your starter).

I just made my second whole grain sourdough, this time in a corning ware pie pan, and using a roast pan lid to cover it. It still did not raise enough, and the crumb is too fine with tiny holes. Did I knead too much?, too little? Did my starter need more feedings? Did I put it in the oven too soon. Could it be any or all of those? The top tore just a bit when I was shaping it (according to your video). My cuts were not deep enough, but it only broke just a tiny bit, near the bottom on opposite sides.

I did not use the rye flour in this one, and we really like the taste a whole lot better, so I will continue to make it, until I get one I like.

I would appreciate any suggestions.

Hi Sheila.

The answer to all your questions is "possibly", and it could be many other things as well. In other words, there are way too many variables for me to tell what is going on here.

Heh, good answer. However, my husband loves the flavour, and the texture is great with the brisket he just smoked in his Big Green Egg, so I'm happy and will continue making this bread, adding rye in tiny increments until we either develop a taste for it, or find the exact amount we like. Of course, it could be that the rye flour I used was not great, too. Anyway, the loaf is staying fresh, and we are loving every bite. I will take a loaf of it the next time we visit my brother, who loves European style breads, and is bitter because he can't find them.

My husband has declared your recipe a winner. I am 24 hours from baking my second boule. That loaf stayed fresh and delicious for about a week. I am really impressed.

But I have a question. I would like to add some sweetness. Is this possible?

When I made Maggie Glezer's sourdough challah (using your fine sourdough starter) the instructions were to make up the starter in one bowl, raise over night. Then mix the eggs, water, salt, honey and flour in a separate bowl. Then you put the starter on top of the dough, fold and knead, fold and knead, until the two were incorporated. Then it rose for two hours, got shaped, and rose for five more.

I have been wondering if adding the sweetness by kneading the two doughs together, slowed the use of the sugar by the yeast. I would not raise the wholegrain dough so long, or it would lose its European texture, but I do wonder if this would be a way to introduce just a little sweetness into the bread. Any thoughts?

Hi,

I just discovered your site, and what a find! I have been trying to learn how to make a certain kind of whole grain sourdough loaf, but have had no luck. I've seen it at farmers' markets all over the place — it is in loaf form (not artisan), is topped with sunflower seeds, and has flax as well. I first discovered it at the Union Square farmers' market in NYC. (I think the Bread Alone company calls it their "whole grain health" loaf. It's chewy and moist and soft and has great flavor. Do you think I could adapt this recipe and bake it in a loaf pan, and add the flax and sunflower seeds, or does that kind of bread to require an entirely different recipe?

Thanks!

Hi Matt,

Without the actual recipe from those who bake it, trying to replicate it closely could be quite a challenge. All I can really say is - you can certainly give it your best guess using this recipe as a starting point and see what you end up with.

Maybe one of the farmers market vendors would just give you their recipe. Although I realize it can be pretty weird asking sometimes.

Hi Eric,
Fantastic website! I've just baked my first wholemeal sourdough loaf from starter I made myself following your instructions - my wife thinks I've gone crazy: "how can a loaf of bread take two weeks to make??!!" Anyway, the starter worked great. The fridge fermentation - like other comments above - was very slow but I left the boule to proof for longer and it rose nicely. My problem has come right at the end of this 2 week process in the actual baking. I don't have a La Cloche but I recently invested in a baking stone. I decided to improvise placing my Le Creuset dutch oven [we call them casserole dishes in the UK] upside down over the top of the loaf. The stone and dutch oven were pre-heated to 250 degrees C. All fine after 30 mins when I removed the dutch oven for the final 15 minutes. I checked back after 8 minutes and the crust was pretty burnt but the under-side of the loaf was not cooked enough [it didn't have that hollow sound when tapped]. My question is how to avoid this. Should I bake the loaf in the dutch oven with the lid on [treating it like a La Cloche] or just use the stone and perhaps spray the crust and/or leave a bowl of water in the oven to produce steam. Any thoughts would be great - I have to prove to my wife that 2 weeks to make a loaf of bread is really worth it!

Thanks

Luke

Thanks, Luke.

Your problem sounds a bit unique. Most people experience the opposite - burnt on the bottom. This isn't much help but I think you'll just have to tinker around with different ideas until you get it. It can help to use an instant read thermometer to test when the bread is actually done inside so you don't end up leaving it in longer than necessary.

I'm sure you can redeem yourself in your wife's eyes.

Hi your bread looks wonderful. I hope I didn't miss the posting to this question but can you tell me wHat % hydration your sourdough starter was. Was it white, whole wheat or rye or does it matter. Also if one used a cast iron dutch oven how long would you preheat. Thanks

Eric, thank you so much for the video, the recipe and your generous answers to email queries. Today I made the best loaf of bread I've ever made. Or eaten. Your whole grain sourdough is beyond superlatives.

The entire process went smoothly and the final rise was perfect. But when I took the banneton (and my courage) in my hands to tip the dough into the hot La Cloche my terrified aim was less than perfect. I overshot the edge a bit and had to scoop an orphanaged edge of dough back up and over one side of the boule.

Forty-five minutes later, to my relief and great delight the boule emerged high and beautiful, the craggy overhang resembling an upthrust along the San Andreas fault, but handsome and golden brown all the same.

And the flavor! My husband is predicting we'll be needing another boule shortly.

Again, thank you.

~ irene

That's great, Irene. I love a happy ending (and beginning). And a well written account to boot. This is a nice way to start off the week.

when starting to making sourdough stater is the water or pineapple juice warm or room temp and as for the bread making is the liquids warm or room temp thank you from shelia who is very interested in bread baking

Now that I've got the hang of making this incredibly delicious bread I'd like to vary it a bit. Any special tips for adding some leftover cooked whole grain cereal, or sunflower seeds, or walnuts, or…

Thanks again, Eric. This recipe and La Cloche have transformed bread at our house!

~ irene

Good question, Irene. Maybe others can chime in with some particular tips, but I would suggest just start adding whatever strikes your fancy and see what you like.

One thing I've found is that sometimes it doesn't take all that much of a certain ingredient to impact the results significantly. I also have a short memory for what I've done to alter a recipe to my liking so I at least try to remember to write down what I've tried (and liked) for future reference.

If you do hit on something that sends you into bread bliss, I hope you'll let us know about it!

LOVE LOVE LOVE your site…it has been a great help to me. I have baked whole wheat bread from scratch (grind my wheat berries, etc.) for about 10 years but am now delving into the sourdough experience. I had developed my recipe for the WW Bread to the point it was a science not an art. With the method I used, my bread turned out perfect every time and everyone loved it.

Reason for writing: It's hard for me to tell when the dough in the final rising has doubled. I am always afraid it will fall if I wait too long but want it to reach its full rising. With my other recipe, my loaves rose for exactly 20 minutes…no more, no less. Any advice??

Thanks again for your website!!

Debra

Thanks Debra.

I don't know if you can ever really tell for sure when your dough is at the perfect point of maximum rise. It does get easier to judge the longer you bake and especially if you're baking the same recipe a lot.

I actually shoot for putting my dough in the oven a fair bit before it's fully risen. I get better oven spring that way and greatly reduce the risk of over proofing and falling. I'm not sure how a "fair bit" translates into actual time. It probably varies a lot by recipe and how close attention I'm paying.

Hi Eric,

I've been baking bread with a bread baking machine since last year and it has been saving a lot of time and effort.

But this year I decided to stop using instant yeast and use a starter. I managed to grow a rye-kefir starter, which is not quite a "dough" because it is a great deal more lquid.

Recently I found your lovely helpful site and experimented to copy some of your recipes, using my own starter - Whole Grain Sourdough bread, 100% Whole Grain bread, Steel Cut Oats Bread. All of them where success! I may send some photos if you are interested.

Then I started experimenting and baked a Russian Style Rye Bread with my Rye-Kefir Starter, using the Whole Grain Sourdough recipe as a basis.
But I think the result can be easily converted to using your usual starter.

I skipped the first 12-hour preliminary stage and just took 550 ml (2 1|4 cup) of ready-made Rye-Kefir Starter.

I mixed it with 270 ml(1 1|4 cup) of water, 150 gr rye flower, 200 gr white bread flower, 170 gr spelt, 13 gr salt, added 2 tsp gluten, 4 tsp rye malt powder, 3 tsp crashed coriander seeds, 2 tsp white vinegar.

I left the dough for 24 h in a frige and then 5 hours in the baking ceramic form (no La Cloch found unfortunately).

Then baked 45 min with closed lid and 15 more without it.
The result was amaizing!

Thank you for your great recipes and baking suggestions!

I believe this Russian style Rye Bread can be easily repeated using your usual Sourdough Starter.

Just some small hints.
1. If you want to convery Whole Grain Sourdough into Russian Stile Rye bread,Rye srarter can be prepared during

"Evening of Day 1: Mix together:

200 grams (7 oz. or 7/8 cup) water
120g (4 oz. or ½ cup) sourdough starter
236 grams (8 1/3 oz or 2 cups) whole wheat flour"

- JUST USE 236 GRAMS OF RYE FLOWER instead of whole wheat flower and leave for 12 hours just like in the original recipe.
2. I put the boule in the baking form instead of proof basket, and after 5-hour proofing just put the form into a cold oven. As simple as that… that is why I baked for 1 hour instead of 45 min. If you want a preheated La Cloche, use the original baking time.

Well, my first sourdough!

I kind of followed the recipe in so far as I mixed some starter (wholewheat pineapple), some WW four and some filtered water into a dough like mixture. I think I underestimated the flour a little, as it required a fair bit more to make the dough dry enough to work with. Residing in Sydney, Australia, I used the metric "fair bit", not imperial which you seem to use

It then had about a 18 hour proof, with a knead this morning and about 4 hours rise until roughly doubled.

Then I got impatient and started cooking!

I used a Pyrex bowl with a lid (30 mins) and lid off (20 mins) in 250 degs C oven set to fan bake(a bit less than 500 F on my oven thermometer). I also used a candy thermometer, stainless steel needle type, to measure the internal temp to 200 C.

The result was a small crumbed, almost sandwich style, loaf but with a thick crunchy crust, which I like, but this was maybe a bit of overkill and hard to cut through in places.

Anyway, it was not bad to eat (half gone in the last hour!) but I realised I also forgot to add the salt - D'oh!

So now I have copied the recipe details into a document that I can print and stick on the kitchen notice board for the next one in a few days! I just took a hint from above and made a quick beer batter - unfortunately I was not able to use the whole bottle of beer, so am having to discard that manually (or should that be orally!).

I also bought a range of organic flours to try over the coming weeks - spelt, besan (chickpea), rye, etc.

My point of the above is that I am surprised at how flexible the method is - the long proof and natural/wild yeasts seem to give a resilience and flexibility that is easy to get some sort of results with, even if not quite what is desired.

And a quick question …do you have a recipe using these principles for Ciabatta style loaf?

Howie from Utica, NY sent in this great photo of his first attempt at the Whole Grain Sourdough. I hear it turned out as good as it looks. Nice going, Howie!

'They' say the proof (!) of the pudding is in the eating and I have been snacking on my first sourdough all day here at work!

Great with some cheese and tomato …or by itself …

So the crumb on this one was fairly tight…next time I think a longer rise time and more starter added would be good. And some salt next time - D'oh!

Also from what I have read, a longer cook (50-60 mins) on a slightly lower heat (~200C) might also improve the bubbles and give a thinner crust.

Will let you know …

Howie,

Do you do bread parties??? I have a few friends who would be interested in coming to your house for instruction!

Hi Laurie,
I actually was thinking about it.
The four breads that I feature will be:

1: Sour Seeded
2: Parm and Olive (Eric was right, the ingredients are a fortune
3. The cran-pecan
4. Regular sourdough (no knead)

Hows that sound?

Howie

Oh Laurie one other thing..
Make sure you tell my wife about it first!

Laurie,
One other thing..
Make sure Leslie knows about it first.
Otherwise.. NO BREAD FOR HOWIE!!

Hi Eric,

found one of your videos on youtube a few months ago, and ended up here. you started me off on a journey that has resulted in no store bought bread for months.

what prompted me to post here was my starter story. i really wanted to make the bread recipe at the top of this page. but didn't have a starter… so, i set out on a quest for starter.

the starter i ended up with has to be the weirdest starters going. at one point, i had started two starters simultaneously, one from organic whole wheat flour and one from an organic apple. but neither seemed to rise at all in their bottles. i knew they were "alive" though, as they both developed very yeasty/alcohol like smells to them. i was going to throw both out and start again, as everyone seems to say that the starters have to be able to double themselves to be any good at baking. but then i thought, what happens if i mix them together? i was going to throw them out anyways, so it wasn't like i was going to lose anything here!

the starter mixture still didn't rise very much, but over time it developed an intense tangy/alcoholy/sweet/fruity smell to it that begged to be baked. so i made some dough. found that it needed a little more heat in the fermenting stage to get going, but during the long ferment, the dough doubled in size. and, the resulting bread retained the fruity/sweet/tangy flavour. made it with raisins and walnuts last night. definitely worked.

now, i bake bread every other night. my wife thinks i'm nuts… but that's not necessarily anything new.

Hi Eric,
I made this bread a week or two ago with great results. It didn't rise at all in the fridge, and less than I expected even over a day at room temperature, but it sprang pretty well in the oven, and turned out really well. The best part was the super dark, very sturdy bottom crust. All that time fermenting really made for delicious bread. thanks.

Good story, David. Who would have guessed your results? Not many I suppose. This should be an inspiration for anyone thinking their starter is at a dead end.

Hi Logan,

That's great information. Sometimes what looks like it might not be working well turns out after all with some nice oven spring to save the day.

Hey, I LOVE this recipe! I've been searching high and low for a (mostly) whole grain sourdough that pairs well with French/Italian home cooking. So I'm now hooked, thanks to you. And hey, I have a question: looking at your photographs, I'm still getting the feeling that you're getting a more open crumb than I am, with bigger holes. What could be the variables at play, there? Longer kneading? My fridge too cold? Something in my oven?

I don't have the La Cloche, so I've been using a Lodge cast iron dutch oven, like in Bittman's no-knead recipe.

Also, what's your feeling about adding humidity to the cooking environment: is that unnecessary, inside a closed dutch oven? Or might the rise be helped if I sprayed the surface of the dough boule with water before putting down the lid and starting the bake?

Hi Daniel,

I'm glad you're loving this recipe, it's one of my favorites for sure.

The most common (and easiest to control) variable affecting crumb structure is dough hydration. That's a big part of why the wet dough no knead recipes are so wildly popular. So I suppose your dough could have been a bit drier than mine and you could try adding an ounce or two more water next time and see if that make a difference. Otherwise, I wouldn't know how to pinpoint other reasons. There's so many subtle variables.

Adding humidity is a great thing during the first minutes of baking but I've always felt that it's not necessary when using a closed container like a dutch oven or cloche. At least with a dutch oven you could try it without risking damage vs a clay baker which could crack from the thermal shock.

Okay, great advice: I'm now experimenting with more moisture, and also with mechanically kneading (via mix-master) a fairly wet dough, on the theory that a bread hook can knead where hands would get too sticky. Every tried this? Thoughts?

And I have a follow-up question. Do you think the Cloche has any advantages over a cast-iron dutch oven? I'm thinking of buying one, based on the descriptions of thin, crispy crust I'm seeing in user comments.

I haven't done much in the way of mechanical mixing. Just be careful not to over mix which is easier to do with an electric mixer. No knead requires probably less than a minute of mixing by hand. I've really only used a mixer for making super wet ciabatta bread and it was great for that.

I'm not a good one to ask about La Cloche vs cast iron Dutch oven as I'm very biased. I have both but always use the cloche. There's something about natural earthen material that seems to give better results. Many others have said the same thing. However, the difference, if any, is not big. Cast iron has the advantage of being less expensive and indestructible. My guess is you'd be happy either way.

i really appreciate this site too, as so many have mentioned. recently, a friend told me that since i enjoy baking (especially bread) so much, i really should have a hearthkit. i found the site but was told that the company has gone at least temporarily out of business. what do you know on this subject ? thanks if you can help by also stating an opinion on the effectiveness of this device.
kindest regards, ann reed

Thanks Ann!

I own a Hearthkit and it's an ok product. Just overpriced in my opinion. If you can get a good price on one, you'd probably be happy with it. About a year ago I was going to become a rep for them but decided to go with Fibrament instead (www.breadtopia.com/store/baking-stones.html). Fribrament makes a great stone. If you're comparing Hearthkit at $200 vs Fibrament, you can get 2 Fibrament stones for significantly less money and put one stone on one rack and another on the rack above and bake your food in between. That way, you're doing an even better job of simulating the hearth oven effect that Hearthkit promotes but for less money.

Eric,

I tried this recipe and didn't get good results. I am using KA flours. My starter is good. I use my starter around the 24 to 48 hr mark after my last feeding. I double everything so that I can get several loafs out of it. After day one, the biga was doubled easily. Since I didn't have Spelt flour, I thought I could use Amarath flour. I also had soy but wasn't sure if I could use it instead of spelt. I mixed everything up like the video says and put it in a container to go into my fridge. After 24 hrs, it maybe gained about 20% in bulk. It didn't rise much at all. Thus my loafs were rather flat and dense with the crumb being a little too moist in my opinion. I have been trying to use sourdough but have not gotten great results from any of the sourdough recipes here. Not even from Peter's books either. The starter is alive and active and other people I have given the starter to have done great with it. I just can't seem to get the starter to work well for me. I must be doing something wrong. My kitchen usually stays around 66 to 68 degrees all the time. It's a cool kitchen. Would that impact it's rise? I have also never gotten good if any oven spring with my sourdoughs. At this point, I am about to just give up on sourdough and just use yeast since I can't seem to get it to work right for me. I like the taste of it though. I have a kitchen scale that I used to put the dough together so I followed the measurements exactly as you have them listed. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Frustrated Sour (dough) John in MO

Hi John - I assume you mean Amaranth flour … I tried this also and did not get good results, even though it says on the pack that it can substitute for normal flour up to 30%.

I got similar results … not good rise (proof) and tight crumb. It actually made really good toast though esp with just some salted butter - yummy!

Sound like you might need some more gluten in the dough…maybe add a tablespoon or so of gluten flour?

Good luck,

Andy

Hi John,

I wish I could offer some help. About the only thing I could pick out of your post was the idea of you getting together with one of the people you gave your starter to, who are having good results, and see first hand how they are doing it. Sounds pretty extreme I realize, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

That you for your suggestions. I did some playing around lastnight. I love the Cinnimon and Raisin bread so I decided to make some more. This is what I added to the recipe. I used the one in the comments on combining the Steel-cut oat and cranberry loaf. I changed out the oats for a whole grain cereal mix. Then I added about an 1/8 teaspoon of SAF Instant yeast. Then added 1 tsp of gluten. After 12 hours it looked about normal. It is in the proofing that I have issues. So I turned on the oven to warm and waited 1 minute. Then I turned it off and left the door open for 3 minutes. Then I turned on the light to the oven and put the dough in my proofing basket and then put it in the oven. After 90 minutes, it clearly doubled in size. I pulled it out and put it in my dutch oven after I brought it up to temperature. Cooked for 20 minutes at 500 and then 10 with lid off at 450. WOW! I got oven spring and a golden crush. I had to run to work this morning so I didn't have time to cut it but I can't wait to get into it to see how it turned out inside. I will try this tonight with a whole wheat sourdough loaf and not add any extra ingredients but use the oven to proof the dough. I most likely is a temperature issue with my kitchen. I usually is cool, I wish it was KEWL though. The people who are getting good results are using whole grains. They are a pure white flour kind of people and we try not to use white flour in our house as much as possible. From day one, my boys have been raised on whole grain or multi-grain breads. Much better for them. I will report back what I find out about the next test. Darn, looks like I have to bake again.

John in MO

thank you so much for the time you take answering questions. and i cant tell you how happy i am to have stumbled into your website.

q: i want to make the sourdough whole wheat bread with 2 cups of whole wheat flour instead of white flour. what will that do to the rest of the ingredients?

q: i have a new bosch mixer which i purchased because my old kitchen couldn't handle the dough mixing, can i by pass the 12 hrs fermentation process? what of the procedure above can i change?

q: what does the 12 hrs of fermentation do? is this true only of the san francisco sourdough bread?

q: a new la cloche - i understand you have to grease it with olive oil to season it - do you have to grease the outside as well?

thanks again.

the bag that you use to envelope the dough bowl during fermentation and proofing, is that a special bag or can i use grocery plastic bags? thanks.

Hi Amy, I'm glad you stumbled in here too!

You won't need to change the other ingredients, the bread will just tend to be more dense.

I'm not sure how the mixer would affect the fermentation time. I don't think it would. It will make faster and easier work of the kneading however.

Fermentation allows the bread to rise and the flavors to develop. This is true of almost all leavened breads.

For bread baking, you don't have to season a cloche at all. I never have. Maybe it has some value for cooking other things, like meat, but I only use mine for bread.

Regarding that plastic bag I used for proofing, it was nothing special. I liked it because it was big, but it has since worn out and been disposed of. Probably any plastic bag would work. Now I use the plastic bags you find on rolls in the produce section of grocery stores since I figure they're food grade.

thanks for the info. am waiting for the french lame and then I'll be baking away,

received my orders of la cloche (round and long oval) and lastly my french lame, but not before i finally succumbed to baking a whole wheat walnut sourdough bread without the lame!

the bread is, of course, great tasting. Used 3 cups of whole wheat flour and the balance in unbleached bread flour.

I cut the dough into 2.

The boule shape: baked this after getting letting ferment for 5 hours. . it didn't rise high even after using a round stainless steel mixing bowl (to prevent it from spreading out which is smaller in diameter compared to the la cloche top.

The oblong shape: baked this right after shaping without an additional fermentation time. rose beautifully! however, it sort of exploded at the top(perhaps with the lame, i'd do a better job of slashing the top of the dough).

I took pictures but I dont know how to post them.

Definitely hooked on home baked bread (both the no knead and regular). However, we've been eating a lot more bread lately! including sourdough pancakes.

I've been successful with the no knead as well - did the rosemary & kalamata olives, sundried tomatoes and gruyere versions.

By the way, I found in our local Walmart this ziplock baggie: Hefty One Zip Jumbo slider bagss. Holds 2.5 gallon and there's 12 bags to a box.

My thanks again for your video and support. Gave me the courage to bake bread.

Hi Amy,

That's great things are going so well for you. Please email me me your photos and I'll post them here. Thanks!

hope you got my pictures.
got a different problem: i took my starter out of the fridge; stirred the little hooch that was on top; and added the 1 cup flour and water.
after 12 hrs of sitting outside, it rose a little but my concern is that more hooch formed on the surface. couldnt remember how it was supposed to smell like but it seems to smell sour. no activity on the starter.
did i kill my starter? has it gone bad? should i throw it away?
please advise. thanks.

Hi Amy,

Yes, got your pictures (see above), thanks!

Hooch happens sometimes. I just pour it out. But it usually won't form on a healthy starter. And a sour smell is pretty normal.

It's hard for me to tell what the deal is with your starter or whether you should toss it yet, but it doesn't sound too good from your description. If it was doing well, I think you would probably know it. It just looks healthy and vibrant.

OK. guess i'll have to dump it. now, i got a problem. the lady that gave me the starter moved away and i didn't keep any reserves. guess have to start over. just when i think i'm getting the hang of it and is excited about the prospect of a new loaf of bread (rye bread)! guess i'll do a traditional bread for a change.

Amy,

Let me offer a possible alternative to throwing out your starter. I had trouble with my starters until I started keeping LESS of it around. My theory (maybe right/maybe wrong) is that when you keep adding fresh flour and building up more and more starter, you are also building up more waste products from the yeast/bacteria.

I suggest that you pour out all but 1-2 tablespoons of starter. Then start small and add 1/3 cup flour with ~1/3 cup of water. Let it sit out on your counter for 12-18 hours and see if you get any action. If the starter seems to come to life, then continue to add more flour/water until you have enough starter for your recipe. After you add your active starter to your recipe, then pour out all but a couple of tablespoons of the excess and start again with your 1/3 cup flour/water. This is what I do whenever I use then feed my starter.

If throwing your starter away sounds too wasteful, remember you can save your excess starter for 'flavor', even if it's leavening power is questionable. I use saved excess starter for biscuits, etc, where I use the starter for its sour flavor but not its leavening power.

Good luck and don't give up.

Amy,

I dried some of my starter for just in case situations like this one. That way I can get rid of what I have and start from fresh good starter. Eric says to dry it out in the oven with just the oven light on. Spread the starter out on parchment paper and make it a thin layer. The next day it will be dried enough to crush and put in a zip lock baggy or use a food saver to seal it and then put it in the freezer. Once dried, it can last for a very long time. Once you have a good stater going and you have had it for some time, replace what you have in the freezer with a more seasoned version. The longer the sourdough goes, the more healthy and active it is. I ditto what Tim says. Try it. There is no harm in doing it. Also, it is very important to stir it twice a day no matter what unless you put it in the fridge. Unless you are going to use all of it within two days of refreshing, you have to discard half of the starter and then add half to it. Follow the instructions in the Starter Maintenance thread. I also found a web site that discusses sourdough in great detail. http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html. It also has videos and recipes.

I have heard to just pour the hooch off and keep going but do the halfing. That should help greatly. Great looking bread.

John in Mo

Hey, couple questions.
1. have you been able to get a crumb structure as open as that shown in your photos of your poilane loaf?
2. I notice you now have a link to Reinhart's new book. I was on the phone with him the other day and actually told him about your site; he checked it out on line with me. And here's my curiosity: have you tried his miche recipe? If so, what do you think? I've tried your poilane recipe and I've done his miche several times and today I'm experimenting with a hybrid recipe, trying to capture what I like about the two. My continuing frustration is with my crumb structure.

Usually my crumb structure is a little tighter than the Poilane photo's. I don't even try to get open crumb with a mostly whole grain bread. The mostly white flour wet no knead breads and ciabatta/focacia type recipes are great for that.

I bake like crazy out of Peter's new whole grains book. I love the way the breads turn out. I have baked his miche a few times. I much prefer the above recipe. I think they're sorta similar breads in a lot of ways.

Wetter = better.

I have done some whole grain sourdough breads by hands and the dough couldn't be very wet because it's too much sticky to knead it with hands.

Now I have kitchen machine and have made the dough in it. It was wetter then my doughs made by hands and I must say this wetter bread from kitchen machine is much better then previous not so wet ones.

I love this web pages and videos and love this whole grain sourdough bread. Thanks!

I am so excited about finally being able to bake bread. It takes me forever piecing together recipes to come up with what I can do (not quite knowing how to get around polish, biga, etc) by using sourdough.
I liked the King Arthur recipe on Gruyere Cheese, I have gruyere cheese and sourdough starter. So, risking it – I used the Wheat Sourdough French Bread recipe (from Whole Grain Breads) and then added the gruyere cheese. The dough rose beautifully, cut it into 6 small loaves and voila! You got the final product in the picture. It tasted good as well and I never dreamt I could bake bread before.
The bread is delicious! Am sending picture.

Here are the pictures Amy emailed in. All I can say is "WOW"! VERY nice looking bread.

She adds…

1 is of the whole wheat sourdough bread with the Whole Wheat Sourdough with Gruyere Cheese; the 2nd one is just the Whole Wheat Sourdough with Gruyere Cheese.

Thank you to you and all the bread enthusiast posting comments. It really gave me the confidence to move forward knowing there’s a lot of people out there needing guidance like me!

To John in MO: thanks for your tip. I got a new starter and did exactly what you told me, for the "just in case". Happily baking sourdough breads again as you can see from the Whole Wheat and the SD with Gruyere cheese above. Thanks so much!

Tim: I started keeping less starter as you suggested. After all, one can only have so much SD pancake. Gave some away, started reducing what I keep as well. Before, I felt I needed to keep more because when I need to bake bread seems like it's asking for 2 cups of sd starter. As a matter of fact, the sd pancake recipe I have asks for 2 cups of starter as well. Thanks for the tip!

Hi Eric,
As you know I have been searching for the receipe for a real New York City Jewish Rye Bread. Well, I think I am getting closer. First of all, all of the receipes that I have found use a sour dough starter. Not a problem as I have plenty.
The other item that is interesting, to say the least, is that many call for an ALTUS. I am not sure of the origin of the word. Essentially as you may be aware, it is several slices of old rye bread made into a sponge and squeezed dry and then added to the dough of the new bread you are making.
What is up with that? Old bread put in a new breads dough. Have you ever heard of such a thing? Have any of your readers out there heard of such a thing?

Best regards in baking,

Howie

Hi!
I am very new to bread baking, but am trying! My son was recently diagnosed with a chronic condition, so we are trying even more to take out preservatives, chemicals, etc from our diet. I really want to try the whole grain sourdough recipe, but am apprehensive b/c I don't have a la cloche. I di own some quality stoneware. Can I bake it on that covered with a big ovesafe bowl or lid? Has anyone tried this with success? Does anyone have any other ideas?

Thanks for the video! It gives me courage to even think about trying!
Thanks for the inspiration,
~Becky

Hi Becky,

Wise choice to bake your own bread.

You definitely don't need a cloche or anything special to bake this bread and have it come out nicely. If the loaf will fit in a piece of your stoneware, you could try that but covering isn't necessary.

Have fun with it!

Thanks so much! I will try it once I gather all the ingredients…and hopefully will have a success story to report! I hope it's something my whole family will love to enjoy!