Whole Grain Sourdough

Eric,

Great website, great recipe. However, when I made it I thought the dough was a litle too wet so I reduced the water. Then I noticed that you say to add 274g (7.75oz) of water to the dough. I think there is a numerical error here because 7.75oz is 220g and 274g is 9.6oz. I used the ‘g’ units when I made the bread. Based on my notion that the dough was a little too wet with 274g added to the dough, I’d guess the correct measurement is 7.75oz = 220g. Do you agree?

Thanks,

Tim

Hi Nick, Eric asked me to let you know that I used the King Arthur white whole wheat flour instead of the whole wheat called for in the initial mix. I use it a lot and I think this time it was because I didn’t have enough regular whole wheat on hand. I also like to use spelt flour sometimes – see Eric’s no-knead recipes. Glad you found Breadtopia, Annie

I am definetly going to try making this bread. I do not have a bread basket for proofing so should a well floured and towel lined bowl be ok? Also, I do not have a lacloche.Could I just use a parchment lined cookie sheet covered with a roasting pan lid? Would you also add any steam to the oven by ways of spraying the top of the dough, sides of the oven, or a pan of water on the bottom for the first few minutes of baking? The baking temp. also seems really high! Anything higher than 350 C would burn my bread in my oven. Could I reduce the temp., but bake for longer?
Thanks,
Christine (Ontario, Canada)

I mixed the dough in my new model Bosch for about 3 min on speed 1 and 4 on speed 2. I checked by the window pane method and stopped when it stretched nicely. The doguh was fairly wet with temperature or 74 degrees.

I put it in the refer and after about 8 hours there was no movement. My refer temp was 42 degrees. I took the dough out and put it on the counter. It is cold here at night and the heat is set to come on at 58 degrees. SO the dough was about 58-60 degrees over night.

This morning the was a fair amount of rise, but nothing like the rise you show in the video. The dough was very workable. I folded it and rested 15 minutes and then formed a boule. The dough was a bit tacky and was very easy to shape.

My question is this: Is the 42 degrees in the refer too cold for this type of dough?

Thanks for your help

After about 2 1/2 hours of final proof the dough was billowy and very sticky. When I tried the finger test the hole did not remain. I was concerned about over proofing so I put it in the Le Cloche, quickly scored it and closed the oven Baked it 25 min at 485 degrees, uncovered for another 11 minutes to final internal temp of 208 degrees.

The bread spread out to the full diameter of the Le Cloche base and was only about 3″ high at the center. Did not look any thing like your bread.

I have some other starters and will start to use one of them to see if the starter is the source of the problems.

How can I post a picture when I send in a note? The picture tells a better story than a verbal description.

Thanks again.

Yippeee….just ordered my LaCloche and some other goodies,and have two starters goin. One I made with dark rye flour and beer, and the other with white whole wheat flour and pineapple juice. The little darlins’ are showing progress this morning! Now the hardest part is waiting for my baker to get here!

WOW ERIC!! Thank you, thank you so much! I ordered my LaCloche on the 3rd. and it came all safe and sound this afternoon (6th). I am thrilled. Now that’s what I call service! My whole wheat/pineapple juice starter has doubled since I fed it this morning, so I’m going to use it now and make this Poilane recipe you have here. Thanks again for the wonderful service, and this terrific website. Maggie

My husband has declared your recipe a winner. I am 24 hours from baking my second boule. That loaf stayed fresh and delicious for about a week. I am really impressed.

But I have a question. I would like to add some sweetness. Is this possible?

When I made Maggie Glezer’s sourdough challah (using your fine sourdough starter) the instructions were to make up the starter in one bowl, raise over night. Then mix the eggs, water, salt, honey and flour in a separate bowl. Then you put the starter on top of the dough, fold and knead, fold and knead, until the two were incorporated. Then it rose for two hours, got shaped, and rose for five more.

I have been wondering if adding the sweetness by kneading the two doughs together, slowed the use of the sugar by the yeast. I would not raise the wholegrain dough so long, or it would lose its European texture, but I do wonder if this would be a way to introduce just a little sweetness into the bread. Any thoughts?

Now that I’ve got the hang of making this incredibly delicious bread I’d like to vary it a bit. Any special tips for adding some leftover cooked whole grain cereal, or sunflower seeds, or walnuts, or…

Thanks again, Eric. This recipe and La Cloche have transformed bread at our house!

~ irene

LOVE LOVE LOVE your site…it has been a great help to me. I have baked whole wheat bread from scratch (grind my wheat berries, etc.) for about 10 years but am now delving into the sourdough experience. I had developed my recipe for the WW Bread to the point it was a science not an art. With the method I used, my bread turned out perfect every time and everyone loved it.

Reason for writing: It’s hard for me to tell when the dough in the final rising has doubled. I am always afraid it will fall if I wait too long but want it to reach its full rising. With my other recipe, my loaves rose for exactly 20 minutes…no more, no less. Any advice??

Thanks again for your website!!

Debra

Hi Eric,

I’ve been baking bread with a bread baking machine since last year and it has been saving a lot of time and effort.

But this year I decided to stop using instant yeast and use a starter. I managed to grow a rye-kefir starter, which is not quite a “dough” because it is a great deal more lquid.

Recently I found your lovely helpful site and experimented to copy some of your recipes, using my own starter – Whole Grain Sourdough bread, 100% Whole Grain bread, Steel Cut Oats Bread. All of them where success! I may send some photos if you are interested.

Then I started experimenting and baked a Russian Style Rye Bread with my Rye-Kefir Starter, using the Whole Grain Sourdough recipe as a basis.
But I think the result can be easily converted to using your usual starter.

I skipped the first 12-hour preliminary stage and just took 550 ml (2 1|4 cup) of ready-made Rye-Kefir Starter.

I mixed it with 270 ml(1 1|4 cup) of water, 150 gr rye flower, 200 gr white bread flower, 170 gr spelt, 13 gr salt, added 2 tsp gluten, 4 tsp rye malt powder, 3 tsp crashed coriander seeds, 2 tsp white vinegar.

I left the dough for 24 h in a frige and then 5 hours in the baking ceramic form (no La Cloch found unfortunately).

Then baked 45 min with closed lid and 15 more without it.
The result was amaizing!

Thank you for your great recipes and baking suggestions!

I believe this Russian style Rye Bread can be easily repeated using your usual Sourdough Starter.

Well, my first sourdough!

I kind of followed the recipe in so far as I mixed some starter (wholewheat pineapple), some WW four and some filtered water into a dough like mixture. I think I underestimated the flour a little, as it required a fair bit more to make the dough dry enough to work with. Residing in Sydney, Australia, I used the metric “fair bit”, not imperial which you seem to use

It then had about a 18 hour proof, with a knead this morning and about 4 hours rise until roughly doubled.

Then I got impatient and started cooking!

I used a Pyrex bowl with a lid (30 mins) and lid off (20 mins) in 250 degs C oven set to fan bake(a bit less than 500 F on my oven thermometer). I also used a candy thermometer, stainless steel needle type, to measure the internal temp to 200 C.

The result was a small crumbed, almost sandwich style, loaf but with a thick crunchy crust, which I like, but this was maybe a bit of overkill and hard to cut through in places.

Anyway, it was not bad to eat (half gone in the last hour!) but I realised I also forgot to add the salt – D’oh!

So now I have copied the recipe details into a document that I can print and stick on the kitchen notice board for the next one in a few days! I just took a hint from above and made a quick beer batter – unfortunately I was not able to use the whole bottle of beer, so am having to discard that manually (or should that be orally!).

I also bought a range of organic flours to try over the coming weeks – spelt, besan (chickpea), rye, etc.

My point of the above is that I am surprised at how flexible the method is – the long proof and natural/wild yeasts seem to give a resilience and flexibility that is easy to get some sort of results with, even if not quite what is desired.

And a quick question …do you have a recipe using these principles for Ciabatta style loaf?

‘They’ say the proof (!) of the pudding is in the eating and I have been snacking on my first sourdough all day here at work!

Great with some cheese and tomato …or by itself …

So the crumb on this one was fairly tight…next time I think a longer rise time and more starter added would be good. And some salt next time – D’oh!

Also from what I have read, a longer cook (50-60 mins) on a slightly lower heat (~200C) might also improve the bubbles and give a thinner crust.

Will let you know …

Hi Laurie,
I actually was thinking about it.
The four breads that I feature will be:

1: Sour Seeded
2: Parm and Olive (Eric was right, the ingredients are a fortune
3. The cran-pecan
4. Regular sourdough (no knead)

Hows that sound?

Howie

Laurie,
One other thing..
Make sure Leslie knows about it first.
Otherwise.. NO BREAD FOR HOWIE!!

Hi Eric,
I made this bread a week or two ago with great results. It didn’t rise at all in the fridge, and less than I expected even over a day at room temperature, but it sprang pretty well in the oven, and turned out really well. The best part was the super dark, very sturdy bottom crust. All that time fermenting really made for delicious bread. thanks.

Hi John – I assume you mean Amaranth flour … I tried this also and did not get good results, even though it says on the pack that it can substitute for normal flour up to 30%.

I got similar results … not good rise (proof) and tight crumb. It actually made really good toast though esp with just some salted butter – yummy!

Sound like you might need some more gluten in the dough…maybe add a tablespoon or so of gluten flour?

Good luck,

Andy

That you for your suggestions. I did some playing around lastnight. I love the Cinnimon and Raisin bread so I decided to make some more. This is what I added to the recipe. I used the one in the comments on combining the Steel-cut oat and cranberry loaf. I changed out the oats for a whole grain cereal mix. Then I added about an 1/8 teaspoon of SAF Instant yeast. Then added 1 tsp of gluten. After 12 hours it looked about normal. It is in the proofing that I have issues. So I turned on the oven to warm and waited 1 minute. Then I turned it off and left the door open for 3 minutes. Then I turned on the light to the oven and put the dough in my proofing basket and then put it in the oven. After 90 minutes, it clearly doubled in size. I pulled it out and put it in my dutch oven after I brought it up to temperature. Cooked for 20 minutes at 500 and then 10 with lid off at 450. WOW! I got oven spring and a golden crush. I had to run to work this morning so I didn’t have time to cut it but I can’t wait to get into it to see how it turned out inside. I will try this tonight with a whole wheat sourdough loaf and not add any extra ingredients but use the oven to proof the dough. I most likely is a temperature issue with my kitchen. I usually is cool, I wish it was KEWL though. The people who are getting good results are using whole grains. They are a pure white flour kind of people and we try not to use white flour in our house as much as possible. From day one, my boys have been raised on whole grain or multi-grain breads. Much better for them. I will report back what I find out about the next test. Darn, looks like I have to bake again.

John in MO

the bag that you use to envelope the dough bowl during fermentation and proofing, is that a special bag or can i use grocery plastic bags? thanks.

received my orders of la cloche (round and long oval) and lastly my french lame, but not before i finally succumbed to baking a whole wheat walnut sourdough bread without the lame!

the bread is, of course, great tasting. Used 3 cups of whole wheat flour and the balance in unbleached bread flour.

I cut the dough into 2.

The boule shape: baked this after getting letting ferment for 5 hours. . it didn’t rise high even after using a round stainless steel mixing bowl (to prevent it from spreading out which is smaller in diameter compared to the la cloche top.

The oblong shape: baked this right after shaping without an additional fermentation time. rose beautifully! however, it sort of exploded at the top(perhaps with the lame, i’d do a better job of slashing the top of the dough).

I took pictures but I dont know how to post them.

Definitely hooked on home baked bread (both the no knead and regular). However, we’ve been eating a lot more bread lately! including sourdough pancakes.

I’ve been successful with the no knead as well – did the rosemary & kalamata olives, sundried tomatoes and gruyere versions.

By the way, I found in our local Walmart this ziplock baggie: Hefty One Zip Jumbo slider bagss. Holds 2.5 gallon and there’s 12 bags to a box.

My thanks again for your video and support. Gave me the courage to bake bread.

hope you got my pictures.
got a different problem: i took my starter out of the fridge; stirred the little hooch that was on top; and added the 1 cup flour and water.
after 12 hrs of sitting outside, it rose a little but my concern is that more hooch formed on the surface. couldnt remember how it was supposed to smell like but it seems to smell sour. no activity on the starter.
did i kill my starter? has it gone bad? should i throw it away?
please advise. thanks.

OK. guess i’ll have to dump it. now, i got a problem. the lady that gave me the starter moved away and i didn’t keep any reserves. guess have to start over. just when i think i’m getting the hang of it and is excited about the prospect of a new loaf of bread (rye bread)! guess i’ll do a traditional bread for a change.

Amy,

I dried some of my starter for just in case situations like this one. That way I can get rid of what I have and start from fresh good starter. Eric says to dry it out in the oven with just the oven light on. Spread the starter out on parchment paper and make it a thin layer. The next day it will be dried enough to crush and put in a zip lock baggy or use a food saver to seal it and then put it in the freezer. Once dried, it can last for a very long time. Once you have a good stater going and you have had it for some time, replace what you have in the freezer with a more seasoned version. The longer the sourdough goes, the more healthy and active it is. I ditto what Tim says. Try it. There is no harm in doing it. Also, it is very important to stir it twice a day no matter what unless you put it in the fridge. Unless you are going to use all of it within two days of refreshing, you have to discard half of the starter and then add half to it. Follow the instructions in the Starter Maintenance thread. I also found a web site that discusses sourdough in great detail. http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html. It also has videos and recipes.

I have heard to just pour the hooch off and keep going but do the halfing. That should help greatly. Great looking bread.

John in Mo

I am so excited about finally being able to bake bread. It takes me forever piecing together recipes to come up with what I can do (not quite knowing how to get around polish, biga, etc) by using sourdough.
I liked the King Arthur recipe on Gruyere Cheese, I have gruyere cheese and sourdough starter. So, risking it – I used the Wheat Sourdough French Bread recipe (from Whole Grain Breads) and then added the gruyere cheese. The dough rose beautifully, cut it into 6 small loaves and voila! You got the final product in the picture. It tasted good as well and I never dreamt I could bake bread before.
The bread is delicious! Am sending picture.

To John in MO: thanks for your tip. I got a new starter and did exactly what you told me, for the “just in case”. Happily baking sourdough breads again as you can see from the Whole Wheat and the SD with Gruyere cheese above. Thanks so much!

Hi Eric,
As you know I have been searching for the receipe for a real New York City Jewish Rye Bread. Well, I think I am getting closer. First of all, all of the receipes that I have found use a sour dough starter. Not a problem as I have plenty.
The other item that is interesting, to say the least, is that many call for an ALTUS. I am not sure of the origin of the word. Essentially as you may be aware, it is several slices of old rye bread made into a sponge and squeezed dry and then added to the dough of the new bread you are making.
What is up with that? Old bread put in a new breads dough. Have you ever heard of such a thing? Have any of your readers out there heard of such a thing?

Best regards in baking,

Howie

I’m going to make this bread starting Monday (that is, two days from now). At my local mega-mart only Bob’s Red Mill Dark Rye was available, and so therefore I bought it. What did you use in your seminal recipe? AFAIK, “medium” rye is the customary standard. I’m not sure what the impact will be so if you have any input I’d love to share it.

just curious – are you the Tom Maynard from San Diego, California.
Just thought I’d connect – I’m Amy Young (now Amy Hall) from San Diego. Hope you remember. To make the connection – please email back at: ahall@hvalley.net
We have moved to Sequim, Washington.

All right, the dough has moved to the refrigerator for the overnight rise. I have my dough coincidentally in about the same relative location as shown in the video (lower right). The temperature there is 45F. I’ll report back on the amount of rise I get.

At the end of mixing/kneading today I found that I had 9 grams of bread flour left over. I took the dough to the same tacky-not-sticky condition as in the video and decided not to “force” it to accept the remaining flour.

There’s no mention of this in the video, but I’m assuming Eric had/has some left over, too. If not, I’ll work it all in next time.

Final status: Success!

Fridge temp: this morning it was around 40F when I took the dough out. Getting an accurate reading is difficult: opening the door alone will cause a temperature increase of a degree or two.

Fridge rise: I used a bowl similar in size than the one in the video and it didn’t quite fill it. None of my rises got as much loft as shown. Turning it out didn’t deflate it as much, and it formed into a boule quite easily.

I was in a bit of a quandary concerning the final proofing: I don’t have a brotform so I sprayed and floured a mixing bowl. This wasn’t perfect (most of the flour stuck to the bowl, not to the bread), but it worked. And I don’t have a cloche and bake in a Dutch oven. I didn’t want to drop the loaf six inches into the pot and risk deflating it … so I turned it out onto a piece of parchment, scored it, and then lowered it gently into the pot.

All in all, it was quite successful: the crumb is a tad denser than the video loaf (not much), the crust is crisp and crackly on top, thick and chewy on the bottom, and the flavor is pretty complex. I’ve never had spelt before, and the dark rye adds a subtle note. It’s not sweet like whole wheat — in fact it’s quite difficult to describe. Make one and find out for yourself!

And that ends my Multigrain Sourdough Saga. Thanks, Eric, for putting another arrow in my quiver.

Tom.

Hot out of the oven (my baking pot is on the left):

Another angle (the “money shot”). The folds/creases are from the parchment as it went into the pot.

The crumb: It’s a little bit more dense than the Breadtopia ideal, but not at all “doorstop-like” or “anvil-esque”. While I never got the rise that you had in your video, I pressed on regardless and am happy with the result. In fact it’s quite moist and tasty. I used my own “pineapple solution” starter to make this bread. I’m keeping both your reconstituted starter and my own pineapple starter going in the fridge … pretty much alternating in my baking. There are differences between your starter and mine, but they are subtle … and I’m keeping a blend from my discards as a potential sourdough pancake batter/starter maybe as soon as next week.

It’s been more than 4 hours since this loaf came out of the oven and the whole house still smells good.

Hi Eric, I have made a loaf of the WGSD bread from your site. I thought it turned out GREAT. I am trying another loaf, but I screwed up and let the first ferment go for 20 hours instead of 12, so I am waiting to see how this one turns out (it’s on final rise).

I have a couple of questions. I have read all the user comments about the WGSD, and I am confused about what you and visitor #22 are talking about. Roy (#22) says his dough was too billowy from the final proofing of 2.5 hours. Your response was that 2.5 hours is very long for a final proof. Is proofing = rising? When I take the dough out of the fridge after 24 hours, and then shape and let sit for 5 hours, is that proofing? I am confused and feel like I might be missing a step, or that I have let mine proof too long.

Also, my hubby very much liked the bread (and this from a guy who grew up eating Wonder Bread!), but he said he would prefer a softer crust. I baked mine in the cloche. Will it bake just fine in a regular bread pan? He likes the soft bakery sourdoughs, although the flavor of mine is so much better, so I am hoping to duplicate the soft crust. Any advice for me on along those lines?

Thanks! Joanna

Here’s the inside of the loaf I just made. I baked it in the oblong cloche, and it’s about 4.5″ tall in the middle (the highest point). I keep reading about good “crumb”…I am not sure what that is. Definately this is less “holey” than white sourdough I get from the store, but is this a good amount of rise and holes for a whole grain sd loaf?

Hello! Thank you for hosting a fabulous site. I’m posting from Talkeetna, Alaska, land of many great sourdough recipes. I just tried this one and it’s fabulous…great complex sour flavor and a nice chewy texture. I altered the recipe in two ways – I used only whole wheat flour (no spelt flour at Tanner’s trading post!) and I baked in an upside-down Lodge cast iron dutch oven.
This leads me to my question – the crust was perfect everywhere except the bottom, where it’s a little too dark, almost verging on burnt. The interior is perfect. Any suggestions on preventing this? Would changing the position in the oven help?

Hey Eric,

I just wanted to thank you for all your great information on this website. Many years ago I ventured into bread making at home. The internet was on diapers then, but a information like this would have saved me months of frustration. I only discovered breadtopia about a month ago. I now have a super healthy 3 week old rye starter in my fridge which I got going with grape yeasts from my backyard in Brooklyn. I have baked 2 boules from it, the second one being this recipe (whole grain sourdough) and just out of the oven a couple of hours ago. I looks, smells and tastes better than any bread I have paid for in this city (pic below). Thanks again,

Isaac & Mar, Brooklyn, NY.

Eric,

Thanks for the site! Your videos were super helpful.

I baked the bread in my large Le Creuset Dutch oven and it came out beautifully. Though, I am wondering if the cast iron of the Le Creuset held a little too much heat – the dough sizzled a little bit when I put in the hot dutch oven. I was afraid the bottom of the bread would burn, but it did not.

I read that German bakers use only a Rye Sourdough starter. Do you think that would switching from WW to rye for the starter would impact the flavor?

Thanks again!

Manfred

If I minded being a Guinea pig, I wouldn’t be enjoying this so much.

After 24 hours in the fridge, the dough has risen some, but not like yours in the video. I’m going to at least let it come to room temperature before proceeding to the next step.

I think that even punched down, it will be too large for my Lodge cast iron Dutch oven, which holds about 4 quarts, so I may have to make an oval loaf and use my 7 qt Le Creuset Dutch oven. this loaf is more than twice the size of the NYT no-knead loaf.

I’ll let you know how it turns out.

Hi Dave,

Strange how different things can be. One person has a starter that is great white and yet for someone else it doesn’t work so great. My pancake recipe comes from here. Look in the sourdough section and look for Rick’s Sourdough pancakes. If you need me to, I should be able to find it for you. Good luck with the backing. I just got another baking book from the library that has SD chocolate Croissants. It is very work intensive but could be well worth the effort.

John

Hi Eric -

Thanks for the site! I have been successfully baking SD breads for some months. I am in the final rise for this bread now. My question is do you have to do this in a proofing basket or bowl? Or could I perhaps split the dough into two and form tight boules which can rise on the counter. I ask because I have adapted a recipe I clipped from the NYT several years ago for a whole grain boule – just subbed 1/4 c starter for each 1/4 tsp yeast. It’s a fabulous recipe – a real favorite in our household (and beyond) – the original recipe made one boule, but I like to make two smaller ones. They hold their shape very well just sitting on the counter. Have you tried this with your WGSD recipe? I have found that the scariest part is turning out the dough into the oven…

I never muck with a recipe the first time I try it, so it is rising in a towel lined bowl, but I look forward to hearing from you. I can e-mail pix of the whole grain breads to you.

Thank you for offering this website. I was delighted to stumble upon it, especially as I have just done my second no-knead bread and am reading about Poilane in “The Bread Baker’s Apprentice.” As someone who has done video for television and corporate purposes, I appreciate the professionalism of your instructional videos. They are concise and focused, which – to me – respects the time of the viewer and encourages return visits to the site. The comments from your other viewers or visitors are also very helpful. I certainly understand those who question whether the bread resulting from the no-knead method is worth the time and expense, but in the end, I enjoy the time I invest in breadmaking. It is a nice distraction or refuge from the daily responsibilities we all face, and I find the end product very satisfying. I also think the desire to duplicate Poilane is a lofty goal that we can enjoy pursuing, even if humility tells us that it is unlikely we will ever duplicate such extraordinary bread. Thank you again for building a community of bread bakers through your thoughtfully done website.

just checking in from nyc……

hi eric, just made your 3 day multigrain bread……came out really nice, sorry no pics. as i mentioned in an earlier post, i’m using that “fool proof” starter (made with buttermilk & chobani yogurt & bread flour), more & more. while i’m maintaing 3 starters currently, yours, fool proof, and rye fool proof, i’m leaning more & more toward the regular fool proof, fed regularly on a diet of reg milk & bread flour, with a tsp of chobani yogurt every week or so. my, this starter is SOUR” and seems to promote a higher rise. Anyway, peace……..

p.s i use the chobnani yogurt because they make it with several different bacteria strains(5).

I made the whole grain bread as described in the included video.
The crust seemed a bit tough and the bottom was difficult to cut. I baked at about 475 for 30 minuets and 450 for an additional 15 minuets. I baked 2 loaves at the same time. The internal temperatures after baking was 204 degrees. Internally they were delicious and moist with the distinctive sour dough taste. We tasted the bread after about 1 1/4 hour with a selection of cheeses and a glass of wine.
I am a bit perplexed by the tough crust especially on the bottom. Is this a function of kneading or oven temperature?

Eric, several weeks ago I bought your sour dough starter and since I have baked six or so of various loaves of bread using the no-knead method. They turned out great. My question concerns storing the starter. I’m keeping it in a mason type jar that came with a sealing gasket. Should I lock the lid in place with the gasket or should I leave the lid ajar and not lock it so the starter can breathe?
Ralph

Marcia,

Here are my thoughts on the subject. Most of these ideas come from
Reinhart’s Bread Baking Apprentice.

According to this sourdough web site
(http://www.sourdoughhome.com/chipotlebeanbread.html), adjustments are
made for altitude. Higher altitudes imply lower internal temperature when
the bread is done. I believe I also heard Alton Brown (food network) say a
similar thing.

I’m guessing that the justification for the adjustment has to do with the
decrease in temperature at which water boils and the temperature of steam
at higher altitudes. See the table at this link:
http://chestofbooks.com/food/household/A-Manual-Of-Home-Making/Temperature-Tables.html.

Theoretically, the bread will not reach a temperature higher than boiling
water until all the water is gone. Crust; however, will reach higher
temperature because it dries out (a good thing). The inside of the loaf
should reach a maximum temperature related to boiling water and steam
temperature (unless you over-bake it and it dries out) which varies
slightly with altitude. However, recommended internal bread temperature is
usually well below any maximum temperature.

According to Reinhart (Bread Baker’s Apprentice), baking does 4 things: 1)
gelatinization of starch, 2) caramelization of sugar (primarily in crust),
3) coagulation and roasting of proteins to form solid structure, and 4)
drive off ‘excess’ water (whatever that is).

Gelatinization occurs between 180 – 210 degrees. Therefore, Reinhart sets
the minimum temperature for bread at 180 degrees. This is even true for
soft breads (rolls, biscuits, etc).

Coagulation and roasting of proteins happens at much lower temperatures
than gelatinization so you don’t need to worry about that reaction
happening. The effect of roasting on color and texture will also depend on
time together with temperature.

caramelization of the sugar is the tricky one (again according to
Reinhart). It is not supposed to happen before 325 degrees. However, the
special chemistry of bread lowers that temperature (Maillard reaction).
How much he doesn’t say and I don’t know.

The point is that the inside of the bread will not have the sugars
caramelized; however, the crust should. The crust dries out so it can
reach a temperature close to the oven temperature. This is an important
factor in the color and crispness of the crust. Using high temps to start
(450+), then lowering the temp, adding steam, etc., are all techniques to
control the texture and color of the crust. This requires experimentation
so you get what you like.

Driving off excess water is supposed to concentrate flavors, as well as
determine the internal softness of the crumb (moist vs dry). Again, this
is personal preference. Reinhart thinks most people undercook their bread.
He recommends cooking for longer times, obviously without burning top or
bottom, to dry out the crumb. He says he shoots for 205 degrees internal
temperature, but doesn’t say how long to keep it there. Removing excess
water and ‘drying’ out the crumb is also the biggest reason for properly
cooling the bread (again according to Reinhart).

Having said all of this, I don’t make any altitude adjustments per se. I
live at ~4000ft and I bake my bread until 200-205 degrees. My guess is
that the variability in sugar caramelization, baking times, etc.,
introduce bigger uncertainty the any altitude effects on water and steam
temperature. It might be that altitude’s affect on boiling and steam
temperature will lower the maximum temperature of the crumb (before
dehydration) but shooting for 200-205 degrees is likely to still be
possible. So I don’t make any altitude adjustments. If your bread is in
the oven for an excessive amount of time, and the temperature doesn’t get
above 200 degrees, then I would lower my target temperature. I’m guessing
that you’d have to be well above 6000 ft for this to happen.

For me, the hardest part of the time/temperature calculations is getting a
‘good’ crust without burning the bottom of the loaf.

I hope this explanation is clear, albeit probably more than you wanted to
hear Also, if anyone else knows more about this topic, feel free to set
me straight. As with all bread baking there is a lot of personal
preferences involved, as well as differences in flour, humidity, oven
behavior, etc., that gives us the ‘art of bread baking’ that we all enjoy.
The science just gives us some limits and guidelines for our
experimentation.

Tim Jones

Dee: Where is the water in your recipe? Can 2 c. starter add enough moisture?

Love the website, I’ve recently discovered it.

I wonder if anyone can help me with something: getting a more “open
crumb”. I’ve been making bread that I like for several years, by a whole variety of recipes — in fact, mostly these days I just mix things until it has
a consistency I like, let it rise until it looks good, and bake. By the way, I think the thing which has had the most enormous impact on my baking is baking on a pizza stone over which I have inverted a large ceramic bowl — kind of a poor-man’s La Cloche. Oddly enough, I read about this in a book by an English author, even thought the English are not famous for their bread (Elizabeth David, “English Bread and Yeast Cookery”). In fact, I have a theory that the whole excitement in the last year or so about the NYT no-knead bread has much, much more to do with baking inside a closed container in the over than it does to do with the no-kneading part. Well, that plus a bit the idea of having a quite wet dough, which I think most American home bakers were shy of until now.

Anyway, following a suggestion on this site, I tried about four loaves last week — even following the directions and measuring ingredients and all that stuff I don’t usually do! — with a bit more water each time, since there was some comment that the wetter the dough the more open the crumb. Total disaster — I didn’t even finish two of the loaves, they were so bad: they sagged so badly they never really rose *upward*, instead they just spread out wider and wider, and the crusts were way too toasted even at the minimum baking times suggested with the recipes. And yet the crumb was the usual dense, uniform thing. I’m dying to get those big holes, help!

[I might perhaps mention that I live in Colorado, so the air is very thin and dry. This might have an impact.]

Anyway, I made up another loaf just today with a drier dough and it at least rose (and rose *up*), and was flavorful… but same old uniform, dense crumb. What to do, what to do….

Thanks in any case, for possible suggestions, and for this wonderful site.

Jonathan

Is the sourdough starter in your recipe liquid or stiff?…can I use the same measurement for either? Can’t WAIT to try this recipe!

Thanks!

A little late for the party, but I wanted to say that I tried your recipe this weekend, following suggestions from folks at “The Fresh Loaf” website

I have to thank you for a great recipe, that brought me back memories from my years living in Paris and enjoying the “real Poilane”. Your recipe was a very good version of Poilane, I am so glad I tried it.

If you want to see my pictures of the process, they are here

http://tinyurl.com/d646u3

again, thank you very much!

I’ve never tried the spelt bread either, but will take a shot at it as soon as I can get down to the co-op to buy the flour.

Oops – the link didn’t come through:

http://www.bobsredmill.com/home.php

Thanks. I tried the butter wash on the outside and it softened the crust right up!!!! Perfect crust! I love my bread! thanks! I did test the temp of the crumb and it was 205 degrees. I reduced the temp by 20 degrees and baked for 10 minutes longer and that helped but it is still a bit wet or tacky. Any other ideas?

Do you have a good english muffin recipe?

As many others have, I wanted to take a little time to thank you for the work you’ve put into the site. Not only have you provided us with amazing videos of your processes, you’ve also managed to establish a wonderful community where novice and masters alike can bounce ideas and problems around to try to find the answers they have. I enjoy reading everyone’s comments as much as I love watching the videos and poking through the recipes. I am so thankful that I’ve found this little nook!

I’ll admit that I’m still a bit of a novice tinkering around and having fun with my new bread baking hobby, but I I do have two questions.

1. On your video you talk about not doing a very good job with your slashes so that you got a bit of a rather sharp edge… does this happen because you’ve slashed too deeply, or not deeply enough?

2. Have you often found your whole wheat flour to be incredibly dry? I’ve had great success with some of the recipes a few weeks ago, but have been struggling since then to get anything with whole wheat to work. I think I’ve narrowed down my backwards progress to coincide with the new batch of whole wheat flour I purchased. After watching your videos again I noticed that your biga seems much looser than mine, and I’ve ended up adding and additional 50% in the amounts of water called for in order to get my doughs to come together. Is this something that happens regularly? Does 50% additional water seem excessive?

Once again, this is a wonderful place… I’m so glad it’s here and that you’ve put so much time into it!

*add “most” just in front of active.

My daughter let me know about the Breadtopia site after she began experimenting with sourdough bread. What a wealth of knowledge! I brought some of her Whole Wheat starter home to Colorado from North Carolina just over a week ago, fed per site instructions and have a nice amount of bubbly starter. I made a new White Flour / Pineapple starter at the same time, and it is doing great. The question I now have – are there adjustments that need to be made to recipes due to the elevation (somewhere around 6200 feet above sea level) and alpine dessert conditions? I have had varying degrees of success with commercial yeast breads using both the oven and a bread machine, and was hoping that someone out there might have some hints. Thanks for the great site and information.

I have tried your whole grain sourdough bread three times with mixed results. It seems that my starter makes the bread rise nicely in the fridge but once it is out for the second raise it is completely inactive. The first bread was great tasting but very dense and the second one was a “brick”.
Attempting a third one right now. Any suggestions?
Britta