Cook’s Illustrated Almost No Knead

Hi: Wow- simply thanks. Can you give the recipe for a sour dough using this base method. Thanks

Nice looking recipe. A couple of questions.
-/ Seems like additional malt flavor could be added by using a full cup of beer (all the liquid) rather than 1/4 cup. I’ll have no problem drinking the additional beer but it seems like additional flavor could be added just by using all beer and no water.
-/ I do like the suggestion about a sourdough version if you’d like to put that recipe together.
In the meantime, I’ll give this recipe a try. I just started using one of my large plastic bowls as a proofing bowl and an iron Dutch oven for baking. I really like the results.

CI “Almost No Knead” bread: I subscribed to Cooks Illustrated for years and highly recommend it. It is great to see a CI recipe converted to video for breadtopia.com. My question is whether it is possible to place pan loafs under a clôche. (I have not found a resource for La Clôche in France, so I have converted a large round terra cotta pot Fortunately, the hole in the bottom is not pierced all the way through. I have used this with great success in tandem with my pizza stone. Not having a handle makes it a bit cumbersome, but I manage.) This make-shift clôche is sufficiently large that I could place a loaf pan on a pizza stone under it, too. Would there be any advantage to using the clôche with loaf breads? I always use the pizza stone to insure a more even oven temperature. Thank you!

Great job, Eric!

Clear, concise, helpful, useful and fun. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for your work.

Best, Bruce

eric…what do you think about adding 1/4 cup of starter to the mix in addition to the basic recipe from cooks illustrated??

Could you give a recipe to fill a pullman pan? Thanks!

Experimentation

Dear Eric and all:

I did find sourdough plus beer and vinegar to be too much flavor for me.

But I say: EXPERIMENT!!!

Recipes are just someone’s record of what they did before.

I know some of us are on significantly limited budgets. I respect that. But for most, a bag of flour is not as expensive as most other hobbies. Making a loaf at a time allows you to experiment, pushing the limits of what you know.

I’ve always religiously retarded my sour dough in the fridge for 24 hours and then given the dough an 18 hour fermentation at room temperature. This method makes wonderful sourdough bread, thanks to Rhine’s experiment.

But yesterday I reduced the ferment to 12 hours and gave the dough a longer proof (about 2 3/4 hours) before baking.

What I discovered for my bread was that the loaf was still wonderful and much less sour. Friends who don’t like sourdough would love this naturally fermented bread.

So go ahead a try sour plus beer plus vinegar, or skip the vinegar, or use potato water from boiled potatoes. Add some honey, or maple syrup, soak some seeds and add to the mix.

I took a fully fermented sour dough and cut it into 10 pieces, formed balls, let them rest for 30 minutes, stuck my thumb through each hole and expanded the hole to make 10 bagels. Let them rest for 20 minutes or so, stretched them again so the hole wouldn’t completely close up, boiled them in water with a little sugar (1/4 cup of sugar for a big pot of water; you could try honey or maple syrup, much less, the same or more) then baked until brown at 400º. I boil them for about a minute a side. You could experiment with 10 seconds to 2 minutes! Best bagels I’ve ever made. I’ve tried this with the addition of baking soda to the boiling water and didn’t like the effect. Some swear by the baking soda.

I say experiment. Even the failures are generally edible.

Some experiments are failures. Hot water kills yeast and sourdough culture. But you won’t make that mistake again….

One time I put boiled bagels directly on parchment paper and found out that the paper became glued to the bagels. So now I rest the boiled bagels on a metal rack for a minute or two just to let them dry a bit. Dry them too much and you can’t get poppy or sesame seeds to stick. You experiment and find what works for you.

I really appreciate people like Malcolm and Rhine who challenge rules that my little brain keeps thinking are unbreakable….

Best, Bruce

The other good thing about sharing ideas at a site like this is that I’ll find someone who knows more than I do. Someone will tell me how to improve my bagel recipe. Or tell me how to make a no-knead sweet dough, something I haven’t tried yet.

Back to the pullman pan issue. Such challenges are why I prefer to weigh my ingredients (buy a scale from Eric!). If everything is in weight measure, it is easy to add 25% to each substance in the recipe. I even find it helpful with portions. For me, a raw dough portion of between 100g and 130g makes the right sized bagel for my family. If I have 1000g gram of ripe dough, I know that I should form between eight and ten bagels.

Right now I’m making bagels from Eric’s beer bread dough, to which I added a tablespoon of maple syrup, figuring that the maple syrup would help them brown up nicely in the oven and give them so more chew. They are looking good so far.

Best, Bruce

Barley malt extract can also be found in stores that sell beer making supplies. Which brings up the subject of using malt and specialty grains (ground fine or otherwise) in bread making. The combinations would be unlimited and, I’ll bet, mostly wonderful to taste.

Hi, Eric:

As you know, I’ve also been making the beer bread for a couple weeks now.

I have been using Bragg Organic Apple Cider Vinegar in the dough with what I consider to be great success. I’m not sure if white vinegar is absolutely necessary. Perhaps others can experiment and report on their results.

I’ve also used flat beer with no detriment so far. I don’t think the fizz in the beer is vital to the bread.

Best, Bruce

Has anyone tried making this bread with a dark beer, such as Guiness Stout?

Jessica the orignal CI article stated that they didn’t like the breads made with heavy ales. They preferred the taste of lighter lagers. I have made several batches with Sam Adams lager which I like and I just started a batch with Pryamid Snow Cap, a darker winter beer. Will let you know how I like it tomorrow.

Eric,
I just came on the site to check out the new almost no knead addition.
Of all the times I have been on the site, I just noticed a typo. In the first paragraph on the home page, you use the word “pallet” and I believe you mean “palate”. Sorry to be nitpicky, but you know how I am!
Grin!
Bob

Hi Eric, I’ve been fooling around with some recipes given to me by bread baking friends. No more! I made a resolution to do just your No-Knead method. Made a great loaf. Happiness! Then I got your video of the Almost. I can’t wait. Tomorrow. I’ll report.

I can’t tell you how much I enjoy your videos and my thanks to you are endless. Betty

Replies to Bruce’s Questions (see above)

The longest I’ve kept the dough is ten or eleven days refrigerated. I’ve never reached a point of no return.

Yes, the recycled poolish is the equivalent of a sourdough bread method. I’ve worked with sourdough starters, but I prefer the flavour of the poolish-based bread. Also, since the poolish is just travelling on from one batch of dough to another, it never becomes excessively sour, never spoils, and needs no maintenance.

About the yeast-risen cornbread: My wife had asked for a cornbread to go with her delicious chili. I had never seen anything quite like it, but it’s really just a variation of my basic recipe, using a proportion of cornmeal instead of, say, multigrain flour. And you’re right: I figured that to get a good rise it would need a shot of extra protein in the form of vital wheat gluten to compensate for the use of cornmeal. The result surpassed my expectations.

Malcolm

Hi Eric, Made the C.I. version yesterday and loved how much it rose. I did not have beer so I substituted lemon energy drink and today I have dough almost ready to bake that I made with tropical energy drink.I am also using Agave Nectar instead of sugar or honey. First one turned out so well that I had to make another loaf right away. Oh, and I took pics so will forward those to you if they turned out. The parchment paper made the whole process so easy. I did have trouble cutting into the dough prior to baking–don’t have a razor so tried to use a knife. Also, the crust was a little darker than I like. But, hey, it’s almost gone so it must be ok!! Thanks Eric!!

Hi, Malcolm:

This Monday evening, I mixed my first batch of dough according to your February 29 post. I have not previously experienced a recipe like this one. My four-hour rye poolish barely grew but I didn’t expect much with 100% rye flour.

This is clearly a 75% hydration dough, including the poolish, isn’t it? I’m going to give the dough a couple days of rest in the refrigerator. I think refrigeration of a slack dough really enhances a full hydration of the flour. And hydration is really what develops gluten.

The specific hydration across the board will allow me to easily adjust the recipe to create the sized loafs that I am used to making. This is good.

About the shaping and proofing:

1. Should I try to handle the dough as little as possible? Or is good pre-shaping and shaping important? You’ll probably say yes to both. Why do I ask? Hah!

2. I tend to get better bread when I don’t over proof dough. How puffy should it get? Your posts make it sound as the proofing is very forgiving.

3. I assume I should bake the bread beyond 200 degrees? I usually try to approach 210 degrees with most of my artisan bread. What is your experience with this kind of bread?

Once I go through the process a couples times, I am sure that I’ll stop pestering you with so many questions.

Best, Bruce

Hi Eric, My first loaf of A-N-K bread was a complete success. I left it for an initial 12 hours so it would fit my schedule. Its versatility is one of its greatest features. I took a picture and wanted to send it but I don’t know how to get it on this comment page. I’m sure I’ll soon know how! Happy baking, Betty

Hello Bruce and Malcolm, and hello Eric!

I have been following your e-dialogue about retarding, and as a beginner, I am still a bit confused about the steps. At the risk of appearing as dense as some of my first loaves of bread, (though none of my breadtopia loafs have failed!), I have included three hypothetical “schedules” below to help clarify what I am trying to clarify and understand.

When you refer to forming the loaf from the cold dough, it suggests that retardation and fermentation are treated as one step (as indicated in SCHEDULE A), so that you remove the dough that had slowly but thoroughly fermented during the retardation phase in the refridgerator—it doubled or more in volume while in the refridgerator. Then you proceed directly with shaping and proofing.

When I retard in the fridge, (as in SCHEDULE A), the dough does indeed rise to double, often even before the full 24 hours have passed. I treat this as the fermentation phase (retarded fermentation). I then shape the loaf (cold) and allow it to rise (proof) at room temperature before baking it. Of course, this proofing phase will take longer, because the dough needs to come to room temperature. Is this how you proceed, too?

Or do you punch down the retarded dough and continue with a room temperature fermentation phase (8-18 hours) followed by shaping and proofing phase (ca. 2 hours), (As in SCHEDULE B)?

I have also read of schedules (such as the procedure described in SCHEDULE C) in which the dough is fermented at room temperature and then shaped. The shaped loaves are then retarded overnight in the refrigerator so that the proofing phase takes place during retardation in the refrigerator (”retarded proofing”). When the loaves have risen sufficiently, they are removed from the fridge, allowed to return to room temperature (ca. 1 hour), and then they are baked.

***********************************************************************************************
SCHEDULE A.)

1) MIX THE DOUGH AND KNEAD BRIEFLY (15X) (For the CI ANK Bread).
2.) RETARD THE DOUGH 24 HOURS IN THE REFRIDGERATOR (”Retarded Fermentation”)
3.) SHAPE THE LOAF
4.) PROOF THE LOAF AT ROOM TEMP FOR 2 HOURS (or perhaps longer, because it needs to return to room temperature)
5.) FLOUR, SLASH, BAKE
6.) COOL AT LEAST 2 HOURS BEFORE INDULGING

*************************************************************************
SCHEDULE B.)

1) MIX THE DOUGH AND KNEAD BRIEFLY (15X) (For the CI ANK Bread).
2.) RETARD THE DOUGH 24 HOURS IN THE REFRIDGERATOR
3.) FERMENT THE DOUGH 8-18 HOURS AT ROOM TEMPERATURE
4.) SHAPE THE LOAF
5.) PROOF THE LOAF FOR 2 HOURS
6.) FLOUR, SLASH, BAKE
7.) COOL AT LEAST 2 HOURS BEFORE INDULGING

*************************************************************************
SCHEDULE C.)

1) MIX THE DOUGH AND KNEAD BRIEFLY (15X) (For the CI ANK Bread).
2.) FERMENT THE DOUGH 8-18 HOURS AT ROOM TEMPERATURE
4.) SHAPE THE LOAF
5.) RETARD THE DOUGH 24 HOURS IN THE REFRIDGERATOR (”Retarded Proofing”)(Or until risen double)
6.) ALLOW THE LOAF TO RETURN TO ROOM TEMPERATURE
7.) FLOUR, SLASH, BAKE
7.) COOL AT LEAST 2 HOURS BEFORE INDULGING

********************************************************************************************

AND YET ANOTHER QUESTION:
What do you do when dough is retarding and rises our of sync with your baking schedule? You write that you allow your dough to retard until you are ready to bake, however, if it is unadvisable to allow dough to overrise, do you simply keep knocking it down until you are ready to procede with the proofing stage?

Thanks for you help and this extraordinary site! Gotta run off to my French class! Greetings from the Provence, blue skies and into the 3rd day of 130 km Mistral (North Wind)!

By the way, yesterday we enjoyed my first loaf of CI ANK Bread made with Leffe Cloister Beer (Belgian) and Japanese Rice Vinegar. I used bread flour and whole wheat, and It turned out light, chewy, crusty, and delicious. It boasted very big holes (the dough was quite soft, so it spread a bit more than it sprung, but the crumb was perfect!). I plan to try a loaf using apple vinegar and hard, dry cider from Normandy. (It has the same alcohol content as beer).

Greetings, Karil

Hi Eric, I have a question regarding the ANK and the final rise. I learned a technique for enhancing the final rise by heating water in the microwave until it boils. Then using the moist, warm environment to allow the dough to rise in. Since this recipe calls for 2 hours for the final rise, does enhancing the environment decrease the final rise time? If so, how can I judge when it’s ready to bake? ALSO, thanks for the quick shipment. I received the dough hook and will gladly anticipate the arrival of the dough scraper next week sometime. Will try to download the pictures I took of my last loaf. YUM!!

Hi Eric
I am really getting addicted to the NK bread.. I tell my husband, ‘hurry up and finish this bread so I can make some more’. Guess I’ll have to start baking bread for the neighborhood.
I also love the wetter batches as they seem to make the more moist and best crumb bread. They are very comparable to the Italian ‘Vienna Breads’ that I had as a child.[long time ago] They make great sandwiches

Just finished watching the ANKB videos, and once again, they were great.. I am planning on trying them out this week. One WW and one white.. I have 2 oblong oven bakers, one new and have a question.
Should I oil the pans? I’ve tried this once before and with a high temp, the oil turns black. It doesn’t harm the pan and I just wipe away the excess. Know that you’d have a tip or two.
again, thanks for your time
jo-ann

This is a question for Malcolm Kronby,:-) I have a question about the ‘poolish’. I made the CI Ank bread and allowed the dough to sit out the 18 hours. I then took a portion of the dough and put it in the fridge to add to my next batch. Once I create the next batch, I’m assuming that I should take a portion of that mixed dough that includes the ‘poolish’ and set it aside for the next batch and so on. My question is, do I need to let the new ‘poolish’ sit out on the counter for any amount of time before putting it in the fridge so it can ferment more? Thanks for the help. Also, please tell me if I am doing this wrong.

Hi,
I just wanted to let you know that I have just tried a wonderful, moist variation on the recipe, using 140g White breadflour, 140g wholewheat, 80g spelt flour and 50g steel cut oats ( I used the conversion 1oz = 28g for us metric people in Canada)

I have just started another with 140g each of white, spelt and graham flour. I want to try making the dough into buns – has anyone tried this and adapted cooking in the cast-iron pot successfully?

Any feedback appreciated and thanks for sharing all this great information

Thanks, Malcolm (and Eric). Is there a way to convert it to sourdough instead of yeast? Also wonder if there is anything I can use in place of the barley malt extract? Is it functional or for color?

Hi All;

I have been making the almost no-knead bread with sourdough and getting very good results. What I do different is I use the cooks-illustrated hydration and methods including the kneading. But I replace the beer and vinegar with just plain water. I end up with a very good sourdough bread with a more sandwich like crumb. My kids ask for 2 inch slices because they like the crumb so much. I have done the white and whole-wheat versions and they have worked fine for me. And it still takes very little effort.

Hi,
Having found this site a few days ago I’ve become addicted. Thank you for making all this wonderfully helpful information (and videos) available! I started with the basic recipe for Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes, which baked nicely but lacked flavor. Then I moved on to the basic Almost NKB which tasted much better and looked lovely. Yesterday I tried the Whole Wheat Almost NKB, but substituted a sourdough starter for the yeast. Yummy!

The only consistent problem I’ve had is a bottom crust that is way too dark. I’m using a Lodge enameled cast iron dutch oven. I preheat it to just 475, reduce it to 425 when the dough goes in. I take the lid off after 30 min. and continue uncovered for another 20. I’m also using the parchment paper sling to move the dough into the dutch oven so there is parchment under the dough. The inside of the loaf is great, I check the temp. and cook to about 205. The top crust is a bit tough perhaps but otherwise all seems good. I’m a novice so don’t have anything to compare to.

Can you suggest something to keep from scorching the bottom of my loaf?

Thanks so much!

Ok… I checked the setting vs the oven thermometer today. Settings of 450, 475, and 500 the therm. reads about 12 degrees higher. At lower settings of 350 and 400 the therm. reads 20 degrees hotter.
So… I guess I need to turn down my oven settings about 15-20 degrees when I’m baking. (Another argument in support of buying a new stove! hee hee hee.)

This site is the first place I’ve seen instructions to measure the internal temp. of my bread. Great suggestion to take the guesswork out of the equation!

So now I have another question… What is the purpose of starting the oven at such a high temp? Why not just 400 (as an example) for the full time?

Thanks for all your help!
Carolyn

>> Carolyn wrote: “The only consistent problem I’ve had is a bottom crust that is way too dark. I’m using a Lodge enameled cast iron dutch oven.”

I haven’t tried this, but maybe instead of changing oven temperature, you could put a cookie sheet or something similar on the rack underneath your dutch oven thus increasing the bottom insulation. I once made the mistake of baking a pie on a cookie sheet. Very gooey crust.

I noticed that the oven used in the videos is a gas oven. I think electric ovens have different baking characteristics, even if an oven-thermometer says the temperatures are the same, and it may be helpful to reduce the recipe temperatures by 25 degrees F.

I use a La Cloche (which I got at Williams-Sonoma for more money, darn it. “cloche” is French for “bell”, BTW.) They are truly wonderful. Anyway, as I recall, the instructions (which I’ve lost & can’t reference) said to preheat the oven to 475 degrees F., to put the un-preheated, room-temperature La Cloche with the dough in it and lid on into the oven and bake for 10-15 minutes, turn down the oven to 400 F. and bake another 15 minutes, then remove the lid and bake for another 5-10 minutes or until the crust is the right temperature.

This set of instructions has worked wonderfully well for me. I get lots of oven-spring and beautiful breads. The method is a bit safer, vis-a-vis buring yourself. However, I am going to try the video instructions just to see what will happen.

Are you going to put the sandwich version on Youtube?

I had tried the New York Times recipe and ARTISAN BREAD IN 5 MINUTES A DAY, and then discovered your web site. I grew up in San Francisco, a few blocks from Boudin bakery and so I am so stoked with your recipes and videos. We have a beach house at Sea Ranch on the Mendocino Coast, so last week I brought my cast iron pot and your recipes up there. I did a lot of experimenting, and my husband loved it. Our favorite was the steel cut oat bread. Thank you for your wonderful site and terrific videos. I’m trying the Parmesan /Olive next.

I like this version much better than the “easy bread” version on youtube. I still didn’t get a great 2nd rise but I may have let the first rise go too long. Very flavorful and not crumbly at all.

I am new to the site and just received my dough whisk that I love. I am totally enjoying the posts as well. I am going to try the CI ANK bread tomorrow. I saw a yeast cornbread mentioned but did not find a recipe. Can someone point me to where I might find it? Thanks heartly to Eric, Malcom and Bruce and all for all your information.

many blessings, carolee

Any accurate scale can be used. The advantage to a scale made for cooking (and some others) is that they can be set to zero after a bowl or container is placed on them. That way you just measure what you want in the recipe. If there is no way to set it to zero with a container on the scale just weigh the container separately and be certain to include that weight to any ingredients you are weighing.
Have fun.

Thank you,Richard, for answering my question. My scale does go back to zero. I’m going to try a batch tonight. Thanks, again.
carolee

I just checked my scale and water is very close to 1 oz liquid measure = 1 oz by weight. I have always used the measures as equal for water-but not for any other ingredients.

So, all of this talk (I get an email each time ) is getting me excited! I never tried the poolish, truthfully, it looked daunting. But, after reviewing Malcolm’s instructions, I am ready to give it a try. I am proofing tonight and can’t wait to give it a go!

I went back and read all the posts and found the Cornbread recipe, but I have ANOTHER beginners question. Does cutting marks in the top of the loaf serve a purpose other than just being pretty? Thanks, again.
carolee

Hello Carolee

I am not one of the pros, but as I understand it, crusty artisan breads need a vent to allow steam to escape from the more hydrated dough—especially during the oven rise and the crust formation. If a vent is not provided, the crust will tear in a random way that may not be very attractive to the loaf. Therefore, the slash is both functional as well as aesthetic. In addition, it can provide information—a kind of signature. Some bakeries also use different slash patterns to identify different kinds of loaves, just as confectioners have their various swirls to identify what you will find when you bite into a chocolate confection.

Greetings,
Karil

Malcolm, is there any reason that the dough couldn’t be frozen?

All of you doing this the sourdough way, can you think of a reason not to freeze the “loaves”?

Richard, Don’t quit your day job!

Let me re-phrase: Could I freeze the dough and then thaw and use according to directions?

Better?

Excuse the delayed reply. I’ve been out of the country for the past three weeks.

Bruce:

Thanks for your kind comments.

Beth in UT:

Freezing the dough is OK.

Recalculation of Recipe:

I’ve been making enough dough for three loaves, and leaving it refrigerated until ready to use, as set out in previous posts: see, for example Feb. 29, 2008.

These quantities are easier to work with:

Poolish, say 100 g rye flour, 100 g water, 1 tsp instant yeast

1000 g flour, whatever you like, but adding 1 tbs of vital wheat gluten for every 200 g of low-gluten flour such as rye or spelt or whole-wheat. My basic mix is 600 g of unbleached stone-ground organic white flour, and 400 g of Robin Hood MultiGrain, a Canadian flour that behaves like any bread flour and thus needs no extra gluten.

750 g water. This is slightly variable depending on the protein content of the flour and ambient humidity, so I usually start with 700 g and add more as needed until all the dry flour is hydrated.

2 tsp instant yeast

3 tsp sea salt

Optional: vinegar and malt mix; see Feb. 29 post

Mix up the dough, and refrigerate until needed. Then, you can cut off 550 g at a time, the amount amount for one good-sized loaf (550 g is just about 1 1/4 pounds).

After making three loaves, you should have about 200 g of dough left over. That becomes the poolish for your next batch.

Cheers,

Malcolm

Yeast-risen Corn Bread (Correction)

Just noticed a typo in the recipe posted on Feb. 29, 2008. The amount of water was wrongly stated to be 275 g.

These are the correct proportions for one loaf:

240 g unbleached white flour
100 g cornmeal
2 tsp vital wheat gluten
260 g water
1/2 tsp instant yeast
1 tsp salt

This reply is to June’s post dated may 26, 2008:

I am trying your method of the baguette NK recipe tomorrow. I live outside of New Orleans and buy at least 1 loaf of good New Orleans French bread every week.

NOONE has the recipe to this wonderful delicate french bread, light, airy, with a flaky crust Many have tried to duplicate it. My first few attempts came out more like baseball bats, lol.

Anyway, your desciption of light and airy baguettes is worth me trying it.

Will let you know how they came out.

Dale

Hi Eric,

thanks for getting me back into bread backing! What a wonderful and helpful site!

So far I have had success with the NYT yeast NK method, but my sourdough attempts have been disasters, not even fit to give to the squirrels. Now I want to try the Almost NK method, saving myself the fight with the sourdough in the current heat and humidity.

I have a question with regard to the whole wheat version of the ANK. The recipe calls for honey. Does the bread taste sweet because of it? Do I really need to include sugar or honey? I don’t like sweet bread and the NYT NK method doesn’t call for sugar in the whole wheat recipe. Also, my traditional bread recipes never call for sugar. I don’t want to cause failure by leaving out the sugar, but I also don’t want to end up with a bread I don’t like.

Thanks for your help! Great site!

Best, Beatrix

Dear Eric

I am sooo excited! I challenged myself to learn to bake artisan bread and am so pleased with the results. My order from Breadtopia arrived yesterday, my treat to myself for my upcoming 70th birthday. Many thanks for the most informative videos, Eric. I also want to thank Bruce, my brother in law and a great baker, who has been my mentor and told me about Breadtopia.

My creative instincts are at work and I look forward to enjoying my new hobby, or is it becoming an addiction?

Happy baking,
Marianne

(follow-up to June 18th)

Hi Eric,

I baked the whole wheat bread without sugar and it came out very well. By mistake I reversed the amount of whole wheat to bread flour and used 2 cups whole wheat and 1 cup bread flour and it still came out nice and light. I guess the sugar is not necessary, it just depends what flavour you want.
Thanks for your help.

Beatrix

Hi Eric,
could you please let me know the measurements of your loaf pan ( for the Almost No Knead Sandwich version). I have all different size pans and don’t want to use anything too large or too small.
Also, I don’t seem to be able to get the internal temp. of my WholeWheat(+Rye) Recipe past the 200 degrees mark (should be 210?).
I really enjoy all your postings and hope to perfect this breadbaking soon
Thank you, Eva

Thank you for your reply Eric. Will probably try a sandwich loaf as soon as we have eaten the Ryebread.
For my last loaf I used double the recipe in a 5 qt “Lodge Logic” Dutch oven. The loaf gives nicer/bigger slices of bread. Only trouble was, that I had problems reaching the internal temp. of 210F and the crust turned too dark and is tasting too sharp. I had pre-heated the pot at 500F. Baked with the lid on at 450F for 45 Min. then 40 Min uncovered in the pot and another 10 Min uncovered out of the pot. I was not sure if it would have been a good idea to leave the loaf inside the turned off oven to reach a higher internal temp.
My double recipe for “Almost No Knead Bread”
1 1/2 cups Rye
1 1/2 cups 10 Grain
3 cups unbleached Breadflour
1/2 t. Instant yeast
3 t. salt ( I use a little less)
14 oz warm Water
6 oz Beer ( I used 7 oz to empty the bottle)
2 T white vinegar

I let the dough rise over-night; probably about 14 hours or so. For kneading I like to use a little “very light olive oil” on my hands. That way the dough does not stick too much and I wont be tempted to use too much flour. I also slightly oil the whole loaf before placing it on oiled Parchment Paper (in a bowl) and let it rise another two hours.
For baking I also put a pan with very hot water in the oven. I am not sure if it serves any purpose while baking the loaf with the lid on the pot??

The bread tastes super good ( without anything on it) and my husband likes it also.
I just can’t make myself wait a day or so before cutting into the loaf. The crust is extremely hard the first day; but, it softens more and more as the days go by. I cut the loaf in half. Double bag each loaf in zip-lock bags and I freeze one half.

Can’t wait to try your Parmesan-Olive Bread.

Thanks for having such a wonderful site and sharing your ideas with us
Eva

Hi Eric,
My first loaf I baked at 410F for 30 Min with lid and 25 Min without the lid. The crust was also very hard in the beginning and the center was very moist and “doughy”. I had cut into the freshly baked bread while it was barely cool. (Needed “instant” gratification )

My second loaf ( 1 1/2 recipes) I baked at 425F for 35 Min with the lid and 30 Min uncovered. The crust was darker and very hard and the center was still moist. Again, I had cut into the loaf early.

My third loaf ( double the recipe ; I like this quantity very much) I baked – as described above – at 450F for 45 Min with lid and 50 Min uncovered. This time the crust was to thick and to hard and it was close to burning, I guess.

The crust on my frist loaf tasted and looked the best.

Could it be that the center of the bread would dry out sufficiently if I left it uncut for a day?

The reason why I increased the time and temp is that since I moved to this new location ( only about 40 Min away from the old one) a few years ago and had a new oven, that I have to increase my baking times very much for just about everything. It’s quite frustrating since I had not had any problems for the previous 30+ years of baking in general. (In those days I tried to bake Potatobread and it always came out to heavy) Yes, we did exchange the new oven and still have the problem!!

I’ll keep trying; just hope that in the lenghty process we do not gain excessive weight .

Do you think that I should keep the water in the oven while baking and should I brush the loaf with warm water prior to baking? So far I had just dusted the loaf with flour and scored the top.

Thanks again for your response and suggestion.
Eva

This is an amazing site and I really look forward to completing this recipe! I’ve never made bread before but hope to make a hobby out of it.

Just one question – how necessary is the dutch oven? I don’t have one and I’m wondering what I would be compromising or if it is even possible to complete this recipe w/o one. I do have a cast-iron skillet and one of those pizza-stones that doubles as a bread making surface (also, I have corning-ware that has a lid that’s supposed to be oven-safe, is that an option?). Can I just set the loaf on one of these, or will the effect of not having that extra enclosed space turn the bread for the worse?

Again, congrats on this site, it is awesome!

I too am obsessed with “almost no-knead bread making” I created my first batch of the ‘traditional – white’ this morning. However, I threw the dry ingredients in a bowl and realized my yeast wasn’t “instant yeast”, but “active dry yeast” and I didn’t proof it in water like I should have. So my question is when I get back home today 10 hours later, do you think my dough will have risen? Or will I have to start all over again? Has anyone else made this mistake?

So, Malcolm, do I understand that once you have a poolish going you don’t need to keep babying starter? Or using yeast at all? Excuse me if this has already been asked; I thought I saw such a question, but can’t find it on any of the breadtopia sections. Would poolish work as leaven in oldl-fashioned kneaded bread?
Thank you.
Marilyn B.

To Marilyn B:

Do you have a gas or propane barbecue ?

In hot weather i use a gas barbecue rather than bake in the house.

I put four bricks – ordinary solid construction bricks – on the grill to protect the clay baker or stone from direct heat.

It works perfectly.

Malcolm

Marilyn B

The Ed Wood book is a soft-cover book, which may explain why it’s not in the lending section of the Library.

I was experimenting with the recipe that Malcom Kronby posted on 2-29-08 using a poolish for the first batch and then using a part of the first batch as “old dough” poolish in the second batch.

The first batch was bread flour and white whole wheat. The bread was fine as to looks and crumb, but I thought it was tasteless . I used 150 grams of that batch as the “poolish” for the second batch.

I used bread flour and dark rye pus some fennel seed, caraway seed and some King Arthur rye flavoring. The bread was bake to 204 degrees internal tempature. This bread tasted great, however, the was a crust problem.

When the bread came out of the oven the crust was hard , but when it cooled off the crust was very soft.

Do you have any idea why the crust would get soft as the bread cooled?

The recipe was:

The 150 grams of poolish (old dough), plus
900 grams of flour: ( 600 g of white bread flour and 300 grams dark rye.)
675 grams of water, plus
1 TBS malt or balsamic vinegar, and
1 TBS barley malt extract
1 tsp of instant yeast
1 TBS of sea salt
3 Tb fennel seed
3 Tb caraway seed
1 Tb King Arthur Deli Rye Flavor.

I just made a sour rye using the Cook’s Illustrated Almost No Knead method and it’s wonderful. My company raved about it. I used the Whole Wheat recipe and substituted Bob’s Red Mill organic dark rye for the whole wheat flour (5 ounces). I also used 1/4 cup of sourdough starter (purchased from Breadtopia) instead of the instant yeast. Everything else was done the same — I used honey, not sugar as you did. Also I only baked it an additional 10 minutes with the cover off my LaCloche. It got slightly dark but I like it that way. It was fantastic. Thanks for a great website.

My dough is coming out very soft. won’t hold a shape, just sort of spreads to cover the bottom of the dutch oven.
At the first mixing stage, it looks just like the video. A little stiff. But, by the time the first 15-18 hours is done, it’s very spongy. I knead it just a few times (10-12) adding just a sprinkling of flour, and form it into a shape, but it is soft and kind of slowly fills up the pan I’m using for the 2nd rising.
Then, it rises, very nicely, but I have to bake it in the pan, or grab all the corners of the parchment paper and put the whole thing into the dutch oven. It then spreads to fill up the bottom of the dutch oven.
Should I shorten the 1st rising?
Should I just bake it in a slightly smaller dutch oven? A 5 qt would make the loaf taller.

The first time I used the straight white flour recipe.
Next I tried the larger WW/White combo (2 C WW and 1 C white) recipe

The white flour in the house is Pillsbury unbleached.
I bought a bag of KA whole wheat for the 2nd attempt.

I am visiting my parents house in Florida. It’s very humid, but the house is AC’d.
I’ve weighed the ingredients.
I’d like a more shape holding dough to bake, so I can bake some loaf shapes, instead of all round.

The taste and texture of the bread is wonderful. Nice chewy and bubbly interior and very close or even identical to a good sourdough.
As soon as I can find some rye flour around here, I’m going to try a caraway sour rye.

thanks for any insights!

thanks Jeff,

I have the dough on parchment paper for 1st rising, but have to put it into some kind of walled container to contain the spread. It starts out correct consistency.
When I carry the parchment with dough to the pot, the dough spreads to fill up the bottom of the pot.

However, I think the problem is over-proofing, as you mentioned. After mixing, the dough looks good in 8 hours, even 12 hours, but I am letting it go to 18.
Same thing for the 2nd rising, I am letting it go 2 or 2 1/2 and it looks ready in under 2.

I think for my next attempt, I will put it in the refrigerator after 4 hours, so it will get the benefit of the 12-18 hours to ferment, but will not over rise, I hope.

And, I have done the pinching to form a skin.
I took pictures of the baked 2nd attempt, the one 2:1 WW to white flour.

Of course, both loafs (all purpose unbleached white, and 2:1 WW to white) baked up perfectly!

The combo bread was pretty bland tasting though. Not enough salt and no real tang. Not sure what happened there, but I used white balsamic vinegar for the 2nd loaf and Sushi Seasoned Rice Vinegar for the 1st one (no white vinegar in the house)

I have to say, this has to be one of the all time most fun to experiment with recipes/techniques.

thanks for your help,

beth

I’m trying to duplicate this recipe using Ultragrain, but without success. The first batch I made with the exact proportions as I use for normal white bread flour, only to check it after 18 hours and find it too dry. I tried adding water at that point but it didn’t turn out well.

I just made another batch of both flours and compared the texture after mixing ingredients. White flour seemed a little more strandy, where the Ultragrain seemed to “snap off” when stretching a little.

Any advice appreciated.

I’m trying to figure out if I need to adjust my proportion of flour to water because I’m using Ultragrain. From the manufacturer’s website:

What is Ultragrain?
Ultragrain is the first 100% whole wheat flour that offers whole grain nutrition with a taste, texture and appearance more similar to that of traditional white flour.

ConAgra Mills, the maker of Ultragrain, developed a patent-pending milling process that delivers whole grain flour with the same particle size as traditional refined white flour. The Ultragrain milling process retains the fiber, protein, vitamins, minerals and other phytonutrients concentrated within the bran and germ, while yielding whole grain wheat flour with a taste, ultrasmooth texture and appearance more similar to traditional refined white flour.

NUTRIENTS per 100 grams Refined
Unenriched
Wheat Flour** Traditional
Whole – Grain
Wheat Flour* Ultragrain
Moisture, g/100 g 11.9 10.3 10.3
Calories, Kcal 364 339 339
Carbohydrate, by difference, g/100 g 76.3 72.6 72.6
Total dietary fiber,
g/100 g 2.7 12.2 12.2
Protein 10.3 13.7 13.7
Fat 1.0 1.9 1.9
Ash 0.5 1.6 1.6

VITAMINS
Niacin, mg 1.3 6.4 6.4
Vitiman E, mg ATE 0.1 1.2 1.2
Pantothenic acid, mg 0.4 1.0 1.0
Thiamin, mg 0.1 0.5 0.5
Vitamin B6, mg 0.0 0.3 0.3
Riboflavin, mg 0.0 0.2 0.2
Folate, total, mcg 26 44 44

MINERALS
Potassium, mg 107 405 405
Phosphorus, mg 108 346 346
Magnesium, mg 22 138 138
Calcium, mg 15 34 34
Iron, mg 1.8 3.9 3.9
Manganese, mg 0.7 3.8 3.8
Zinc, mg 0.7 2.9 2.9
Copper, mg 0.1 0.4 0.4
Selenium, mcg 33.9 70.7 70.7
*USDA Whole Grain Wheat Flour data (#20080)
**USDA Refined Unenriched Wheat Flour data (#20081)
————————————————————————————–
The Ultragrain flour texture is slightly more gritty than normal raw flour. The consistency is similar. I imagine it is used like whole wheat, it just produces a lighter texture. It came out for consumer use last summer and I just got around to trying it. Two large chains(think mainstream bigbox not specialty or boutique) in the southeast carry it.

I know it was long, hope that helped. More info if you google ultragrain but that’s a pretty big wall o text I just hit you with.

Thanks!

> John Gordon wrote:
> Any advice appreciated.

Hi, John

Even if the flour is milled more finely, it still contains a lot of bran, which is going to absorb a lot of water which will not have any effect on the gluten structure, and which also means that the gluten is being deprived of part of it’s proportional share of water to help build it’s structure. So, off-hand, you need to add more water, but, in order to get the gluten structure to form, the right amount has to be in the mix when the yeast is first added to the flour. Big holes and high lift come from well-developed gluten-structure. Adding flour or water after fermentation is basically over with will stiffen or slacken the dough without adding any gluten structure – the stiffer dough will rise higher, but with drier crumb and smaller holes, while adding water will make the dough slack, possibly increasing hole-size, but causing the bread to flatten out.

Since ANK is a basic no-knead method, one possible solution might be a modification of the the “soaker” technique used by Peter Reinhart to increase gluten structure in whole-grain breads. In his recent books, he’s suggested soaking whole grains and coarsely-ground grains just in water, but enough only to form a rough, sticky ball. You’d want to increase the amount of water so that later, when you add other ingredients to begin the no-knead fermentation, you can still easily combine them without having to do a lot of work, e.g., perhaps a ratio of 6/5 or 7/5 water to flour, maybe even 8/5. Let it sit for a 3-4 hours, refrigerate overnight, then use the next day to make the rough dough. Add salt at the last possible moment, when you can still work it in – like if you combined all the yeast and water and soaker, let it sit, then add salt and do the 10 or so kneads called for in the recipe.

Also, if you use any white flour, get some very high-gluten flour, proferably organic, and add maybe 1/2 or 1 cup instead of 1/2 or 1 cup white flour.

I made an oops. I misread and put in 1 1/2 tbs salt…did I just make a salt lick bread heh????

My salt lick bread is out of the oven looks pretty good…I’ll try and get a pic to email back

Aaron’s “salt lick” bread

Inside salt lick bread

Sourdough loaf

Inside sourdough

I’m going to be on a sailboat for about 9 days later this month. I thought that fresh bread would be a treat but due to logistics, I can’t bring my La Cloche along. I tried the whole wheat ANK in a metal 5×9 pan at 465 degrees with aluminum foil over the top of the pan. When the bread hit 200 degrees, I took it out but the bottom was pretty badly burned. The loaf also felt like a brick. Should I have reduced the receipe?
I assume the logical thing would be a lower temperature for a longer time. Any other ideas?
Thanks.

I recommend (if possible) using a Dutch oven in lieu of the La Cloche. I’m thrilled with my results. When the bottom of the bread burns by the time the rest of the loaf is done I always recommend double checking the oven temperature using a couple oven thermometers purchased for just that purpose. If you see that the oven thermometers show a higher temperature than indicated on your oven knob, simply turn the temperature knob down until you have the needed temperature on the oven thermometer. Use that instead of the knob. Good luck.

Stephen,
I have had the best luck with always slicing the bread straight across and storing the bread with the cut side down on a smooth hard surface like a cutting board or the bare counter. Keeps well for 2-3 days with no additional wrapping or covering. I have only used this technique with hard crusty artisan type breads.

Hi, I put my bread into two (2) zip-lock bags ( each bag should have most of the air pressed out and be properly closed. The bread freezes well this way and it also keeps very well and for a long time in the refrigerator.
I usually bake a large round loaf of “the almost no knead rye bread” and either freeze half of it or I keep the whole loaf in the refrigerator. The last loaf lasted for three (3) weeks and still tasted very good.
I am still trying to figure out how long and at what temperature to bake the bread.No matter how long I bake the bread, it never goes past 200 F for the internal temp. and the center stays moist. Most of the time the crust turns out way too dark ( just about burned) and the crust is also rock hard. The last time I wrapped the hot loaf into a clean towel and put it back into the oven to soften the crust. Storage in the plastic bags will also soften the crust some. But, again, my crust can stand some softening since I do like to keep my teeth for a while longer .
Keeping the bread on the kitchen counter is not an option for me since we live in Louisiana and the bread would mildew very quickly.
Eva

Hi Mike,
The ceramic pie weights sound like a good idea. Question…. do you pre-heat the pie weights in the pot or do you put the pie weights into the pre-heated pot just before you put the breaddough into the pot?
Thanks, Eva

Thank you Mike. I will try this the next time I bake bread.
Eva

Alessandra,

I do not use parchement paper at all. I put my dough in the preheated cloche or dutch oven. I place a large tin cookie sheet on the oven rack beneath the rack the cloche or dutch oven is on and my dough does not usually burn. At first it did, but once I realized my oven ran hot and I adjusted it down 25º my crust came out much better. I am also careful not to over heat the cloche or dutch oven before baking.

Funny about the beer in the bread. I found some malted barley flour a couple of weeks ago and really liked the flavor a couple of table spoons of it added to my breads. A couple of weeks later I had a Belgium beer which I didn’t particularly liked, Heylisium Bruin (ordinarily I’m a big fan of the Belgium beers but this one was a bit to much), so I ended up substituting all water with this beer, a very dark, heavy beer. I used my usual flour mixture which includes 3 parts white and one part thats made up out of rye, wholewheat, flaxmeal, oatflour and wheatgerm the resulting bread was one of the tastiest breads I’ve made. I will certainly try to reproduce these results although it’s gets to be a quite expensive bread with a $12,- /btl beer in it (750ml).

As far as I’m concerned you could use any liquid as long as it doesn’t kill the yeast, so nothing to salty and definately no Scotch, haha… I often use milk, raw milk, if you can get your hands on some works great! i like to use it in an all white flour bread, delicious. When using real, raw milk (meaning;straight from the cow, kinda…) your basicly adding milk and cream to your bread.
I’ve tried wine (in my line of work I get a lot of wine samples, more than I can/want to drink), it works but I can’t recommend it. Quite an odd flavor an when using red wine you end up with a Grey/Purpelisch bread, doesn’t look very appetizing.
Goat’s milk is great, I mix oats into it… my wife sais it’s an aquired taste but boy do I like it.
anyway, I guess you’re question was concerning the ‘Almost No Knead’ recipe… as Eric already suggested the beer and vinegar are to mimic the flavor of a sourdough bread without actually being a sourdough bread. So yes you can use just water but please try it with some beer also and taste the differnce.

Jacob V.

Oh,,, by the way,,, a quarter cup of malted milk powder gave the bread a great taste. I used it instead of the Honey. It’s a trick I learned making pancakes and waffles without adding sugar to the mix.

I still use my cast iron dutch oven. No problem preheating and the end result is terrific. My guess on the steel is that it will want to be a fairly heavy gauge … but that is just a guess. If anyone actually uses a heavy gauge stainless container they will hopefully give you a better answer.

How do I “make” whole wheat bread flour?
I have a box of Vital Wheat Gluten, and I used it following the instructions on the box (1 1/2 tsp. per cup) to make a whole wheat version of CI’s very easy (the Kitchenaid does all the work) Rustic Dinner Rolls, which calls for bread flour. The weren’t the worst-case-scenario doorstops that I expected, but they weren’t great, either. Rising took FOREVER. Is there some rule of thumb about increasing the yeast or times that I should use? And, was it enough vital wheat gluten? I’ve seen formulas that use more per cup.

Thanks for any info!!

Leslie,

Based on my experience developing a 100% whole wheat recipe that works in my bread machine, I would guess that you need more honey. I had to go to 3 tablespoons of honey for four cups of WW to get mine to work. I think I’d try 2 tablespoons for this recipe. I use about the same proportion of vital wheat gluten as you did. I scoop out a heaping tsp per cup of flour, and that is probably about 1 1/2 tsp.

My bread machine allows a little longer time for rising in the WW cycle, so it’s not surprising your rolls took longer to rise.

I’m looking forward to hearing about your ultimate success. I’d like to serve these myself at Thanksgiving.

Hi, Everyone, and Thanks for all your input:
Here’s Rustic Dinner Rolls from November 2008. I think it should be accessible to all, even without subscribing: http://www.cooksillustrated.com/recipes/detail.asp?docid=17651 .
I’m a realtive bread novice, so I prefer recipes that don’t require hand kneading and basically don’t require much judgment on my part, so this recipe and all the No-Knead variations are perfect for me.
Basically, the first time I tried to make it Whole Wheat, I used all (3 1/4 c.) whole wheat flour and 1/4 c. + 3/4 tsp. Vital wheat Gluten. No other adjustments. I didn’t weigh the flour. The dough was so stiff and the mixer shook so violently during kneading, it wrestled the mixer bowl right off the prongs of the Kitchenaid. The rolls weren’t awful, but they weren’t great. For me, they came out tougher and sweeter than I would have liked, but the texture was the more pressing problem.

For the second try I went from all Whole Wheat to 2 c. WW flour, 1 1/4 c. Bread Flour and 3 tsp. Vital Wheat Gluten. The dough behaved more normally, and the rising times were more like the orignal recipe. They came out much, much better, but I still wish I could make them 100% Whole Wheat.

Taste-wise, the way they came out made me want them with jam for breakfast and not to eat with dinner. Is there any rule of thumb so I can adjust the salt without ruining it? Or, are there any thoughts on a way I can use beer & vinegar like in the ANK recipe? I’m not a full-blown sourdough lover, so the beer & vineger really worked for me.

Thanks, Everyone!

I tried the Rye Bread – it looked fine when I took it out of the oven but later in the day cutting into it – it was very moist and really not edible. Where did I go wrong in this venture?

Hi Eileen, Eric

I second the use of instant read thermometers (which still take a couple seconds to read temperature, but compared to standard thermometers are virtually instant) – thought I don’t know what temperature rye bread should be cooked to. I recently baked some rye (1/2 rye, 1/2 bread flower, with some vital wheat gluten added) to about 200 F., and it was very dry. What should be optimum temperature for rye bread be? And does that translate over into any whole grain bread?

Hello,

I am fairly new to breadbaking. I have made about 5 loaves of whole wheat bread straight from the Tassajara Bread Book, which came out progressively as a 3 inch high brick and finally a 5 inch, almost edible brick… Quite dissapointing. I finally got a decent whole wheat, but I was perplexed why I couldn’t get the high rise and spacious crumb in pictures. Now I know more about whole wheat versus white, but moving on…. I found the no knead method. First time was a cinch, though I got rid of the towel idea pretty quick. The bread looked great and tasted wildly different from anything else I had made.
Then I found this website…. How amazing! I am no making my first sourdough starter, which is almost done, and I made my second loaf of Almost no Knead with sam adams winter lager, malt vinegar, half whole wheat, and some agave nectar. My slashes are a bit off, but I could not be happier. I finally feel good about my bread, including its taste. I also like being able to work with the dough a bit, and I am more confident about trying whole wheat recipes again now too. Thank you breadtopia and all the great posts I have read on this site, it has been a big help!

Hello. I love your website and your helpful videos! Feels very friendly here!

I made this bread this past weekend and I wanted to let you know how good it is and how impressed I am with it! The crust was perfect and the crumb was perfect. I made the whole wheat version. Thanks so much for the website!

Are you still planning on putting the sandwich version on Youtube?

Okay, everyone here seems to be accomplished breadmakers. I AM NOT, but looking to be. This ia a great site! I have forwarded it on to family who also love it and have renewed the love of breadmaking. Just wanted to say that. Here is my question. I started with the sourdough bread NK (love love it) Still messing around with the starter to improve “sour”. Can I use the starter in place of yeast for sandwich bread? Do I omit the beer and such or still use it for flavor. Basically just trying not to use instant yeast. Use what I have instead. Or use beer and water for liquid and omit vinegar?

Wow, thanks for all the info. I did brew up my own sd starter and I am trying for a more sour taste. I will try buying one to see the difference. I don’t think mine is very sour. Meantime I would like to use the starter to make other breads in place of the yeast. I have not played around with any other bread recipes besides the nk sd one.

A few more comments about more sour sourdough:

1. If you make a drier starter by combining the 1/4 C. starter with enough flour to make a sticky ball, then let it sit for several hours, when it comes time to add the rest of the ingredients, add all the water first, and dissolve the ball in the water as best you can, then add the rest of the flour, etc.

2. If you retard the dough in the refrigerator, you may need to fold it as per the video after removing it when preparing to bake.

Hi, Rich

Did you measure the ingredients or weigh them? In my experience, the denser crumb is due to insufficient water, which can easily arise when you measure flour and don’t weigh it – some bread books say that 1 Cup of flour weighs 4+ ounces or so, while others say it weighs about 6+ ounces. Another possibility is insufficiently active yeast – too old, for example, maybe exposed to too high heat somewhere along the line.

Hi Jeffrey

Just a note about oven temperatures. I don’t know if you are using a convection oven, however, remember to reduce the oven temperature if you are. I find convection is great for baked goods (except for pies and filled pastries), however, you have to reduce the temperature by about 15-20° F.

Increased water will certainly go a long way to solve the density/crumb problem. Also, don’t overproof. My first loaves were a bit overproofed, without my realizing it. Then, once I prepared a batch of two loaves and needed to let the second one proof longer while the first one baked. I put the first one into the oven a bit earlier than I usually would have done, and wow, what a difference in the oven spring and in the texture from my earliers loaves (which had still been really good). And, the second loaf came out like the earlier ones. So, although the fermentation window is very flexible, proofing requires more judgement and finesse—The burden of proofing.

All the best,
Karil

“burden of proofing” – I like that. As a recovering lawyer (I’m a member of AA – Attorney’s Anonymous), I always like good lawyer-based humor.

Just an aside, since we’re talking water:

Every recipe I’ve tried from _The Bread Baker’s Apprentice_ has called for far too little water. Some of the recipe’s in _Artisan Bread_ by Maggie Glezer likewise don’t do what the descriptions say they should unless you add more water. For both boths, that means increasing it by as much as from about 5 to 15%.

Water really is the key to large crumb. Unfortunately, more water means slacker dough, so doughs wetter than the NK recipe are difficult to make successfully without some form of kneading, to highly develop the gluten structure.

I was talking to one of the bakers from Wheatfields bakery in Lawrence, Kansas, and he said that his country-french-type loaves were about 78% water (the same as the NK basic recipe), that he kneaded his dough probably for a total of 20-25 minutes by hand (for personal loaves), with several resting intervals of 15 minutes or so, that he didn’t not use any additional flour once the dough was mixed, but relied on a granite kneading surface and a dough-knife, and finally once the loaves were shaped, allowed them to rise overnight in a refrigerator. Very nice results, with a remarkably sour taste (from the long rise in the refrigerator).

Hi Rich

It sounds like your following the right path—also trusting in your sense of dough consistency rather simply the measurements—courageous you!

I don’t have a cloche. I’ve never seen one available here in the Provence, France. Perhaps I’d find one in Paris, but I doubt it. For the past year and a half or so I’ve been using a dome-shaped terracotta flower pot placed onto a terracotta underpot, the diameter of which is a couple of centimeters larger than the pot. I plugged up the hole with a thick piece of aluminum foil. However, I have some specially formulated stoneware clay for making oven-proof ceramics. (Indeed, it is even intended for top of the stove ceramic vessels, such as fondue pots, etc.) I intend to make a couple of long-shaped cloches when the better weather returns. I’ll ask a ceramicist friend to fire them for me.

When I use the convection oven for bread, I preheat it to the recommended temperature together with the cloche setup (and pizza stone, if using one), then before opening the oven door to put in the bread, I reduce the temperature by about 20°F. (I only preheat to the higher temperature to accomodate for the heat loss that occurs when the oven is opened to put the bread in.) Generally, one reduces the oven temperature by about 20°F when using the convection oven.

Also, I bake the bread covered in the cloche for the entire baking time. I find that my bread browns more evenly if I bake it in the covered cloche for the entire time. If it doesn’t register the proper temperature at the end of this time, I might keep it in the oven a bit longer without the cloche cover, but this is usually not necessary.

There are so many factors that one can experiment with.

Bonne Noël / Joyous, Festive Holiday Baking to you and Jeffrey, and of course to Eric and to all of you Breadtopia participants! May the coming year bountifully bless you all with perfect loaves!

Karil

Thanks for the IKEA “Stil” tip. We just made plans to go to IKEA with friends next week, so I’ll look into it. We call this a “Römertopf” in Swiss and in German cooking—it is claypot cooking in an unglazed terracotta pot. (One soaks it in water and places a chicken, onions, etc. into it and bakes it in the oven—a bit like claypot cooking in Africa.) It is certainly an excellent and cheaper alternative to the clôche, and an improvement over my flowerpot, which is a bit clumsy, because it has no handles on it.

I prefer oblong loaves, because the cut surface is smaller (less exposure and drying out) and it is easier to slice. In Europe, the tradition is that the large round loaves are first cut in half and then the half is quartered and sliced with one of the sliced surfaces facing down on the cutting board.) The remaining quarter and the half loaf are then stored. This results in a lot of exposed surface. Then again, our loaves are not quite so large, and they disappear too quickly to dry out or go stale.

Karil

Thank you Bob, that is an excellent solution! I have some enormous washers that would fit over the hole and the rest of the hardware on hand. I will try that out.

Karil

Bob

In your post above you refer to Stolen (Stollen?) If you are referring to the pastry-like concoction? Can you provide a recipe. I really love stollen, but is difficult to find a bakery that has a good one, in the area in which I live.

Thanks,

Rich

Rich and Jacob,

Here is the link to Stefan Block’s website. If you look in the index at the left, click on recipes. You can then do some searching.

Jacob, these are the recipes I used. The Lebkuchen is outstanding.

Rich, he has a recipe for Stollen. It is not the one I use, but it looks very good. I will dig out the one I use for you.

If you all look at Stefan’s site, you will also find great recipes for schnitzel, which for the uninformed (lol) are breaded cutlets (usually veal, but pork is good substitute). The saurbraten recipe look authentic, also. The Black Forest Cherry cake is a just a bit different that what I am used to.

If you have trouble finding the recipes on the site directly, let me know as I have them bookmarked here.

Bob

Breadtopia

Eric

While waiting for the oven to pre-heat, to bake my ANK whole wheat loaf, a couple of questions came to mind:

In the video, you use 1/3 whole wheat flour with 2/3 white flour. I used Ceresota whole wheat flour, but I also bought King Arthur “white whole wheat” flour. In using the KAF to make whole wheat bread, do you recommend the 1/3 – 2/3 flour ratio, or since the KAF is “white whole wheat” would you use it straight and use no whit flour

BTW the La Cloche does a perfect job. I brought a loaf for Christmas dinner and there was an appetizer that was to be served on french bread. After trying my ANK bread, no one ate any of the purchased french bread.
I asked for a critique and everyone said they liked the crunchy/chewy crust and the chewy inside. The next question that several asked was “when are you going to bake a loaf for me?”

Rich

White whole wheat is still whole wheat – it’s just milled from a different kind of wheat. The KAF wesite says: “Milled from white whole wheat, rather than red, unbleached King Arthur White Whole Wheat Flour has all the fiber and nutrition of traditional whole wheat, with milder flavor and lighter color.” It ought to act the same as red whole wheat, so issues of gluten and bran content would be the same.

Hi, Jillian

Two ways of kneading wet dough (more properly called “turning” the dough):

Invest in a dough knife and piece of granite you can use as a kneading surface, and use the dough knife dipped in water to scrap the dough off the granite and flopping/folding it over itself, letter-style. Or you can do the same on a lightly floured surface, dipping the dough knife into flour. You aren’t actually “kneading” the dough, but stretching and folding it to achieve the same result.

Instead of turn the dough on some sort of surface, turn it in its container: after mixing the bread, leave it mixing bowl and let it rest for several minutes (anywhere from 3 to 30). To knead it, wet your fingers (to keep the dough from sticking), then grab the dough at the far side of the bowl, pull it straight up then towards you, then let it flop over the top of the dough. Rotate the bowl 1/4 turn and repeat 3 more times. With so little yeast in the mix, you can repeat this operation a number of times before letting it go into an undisturbed first rise.

I love this bread, but could never get the spring rise that I thought I should. For my birthday my wife got me one of your scales, a whisk (awesome) and a new bread knife. I just made a loaf following the recipe exactly and the rise was spectacular. It really helps to be able to measure things by weight. It is so nerdy to be this excited about bread.

Thanks for the great site!

Eric, Karil, Jeffrey

Thanks for your comments.
Eric: I have forwarded 3 pictures to you to add to this commentary.
Karil: I did use parchment paper to transfer the dough to the cloche.
Jeffrey: lucky for me the sugar didn’t turn black; I baked st 400F. It took about 45 min total time – 15min with the cloche cover removed, but tented with foil so the crust didn’t get too dark.

As previously mentioned, I made the conventional CI ANK exactly as the recipe calls for up until the final 2 hr proofing. After folding the dough about 10 times, I flattened it out to a roughly rectangular shape, sprinkled it with cinnamon/sugar mix and added about 1/2 – 2/3 cup of raisins.

I then rolled it up like a jelly-roll and pinched the seam and the ends shut.
There was no seepage of the ingredients.

The crust is nice and crunchy/chewy and the inside is chewy, but has a pretty small/tight crumb. The flattening of the dough after the folding may have squeezed all of the air trapped in the dough.

However, the sourness of the beer & vinegar clash with the sweetness of the cinnamon and raisins. As you will see with the pictures, the distribution of the cinnamon & sugar is not quite what it should be either.

For the next go-round, I think I will go back to the basic NK recipe, and bake it in a loaf pan. I will use water only, though I was thinking about a little milk, maybe about 2 oz. I will probably use more liquid than the 10 oz, or increase in proportion with the other ingredients as suggested by Eric in his sandwich loaf ANK video.

If you have any comments about adding milk, I’d appreciate reading them.

Also, as a final step when baking the next loaf, I think I will brush the top of the crust with a little egg white wash and sprinkle a bit of turbinado sugar on it, at the last few minutes of bake time.

Rich

Hi Rich

I’m not too sure about the milk. Don’t loose sight of the fact that the ANK recipe is an “artisinal” slow rise bread with only very little yeast or sugar and virtually no added fat. Milk is usually added to enriched doughs that have more yeast and whose character is not dependent upon the alchemy of the slow rise. Also, I am not sure whether milk, eggs, etc. might not develop unwelcome organism and an off taste while rising slowly.

If you want to continue with sweet additions such as raisins, why not substitute apple juice or apple cider for the beer and vinegar. (You can even soak the dried fruit in the juice.) Leave out any sugar or honey, so there will not be too much sweetness to interfere with the yeast activity. I’ve had wonderful dried fruit and nut artisinal bread included red wine in the the preparation, though I have not yet made any.

Also, Rich, don’t forget to look into the existing No Knead Recipe Variations on the site that include the addition of raisins and other dried fruits, nuts, spices, parmesan, etc.

But, also, don’t let all that daunt you. Enjoy your experiments as much as the feasting!

Greetings,
Karil

My ANK sandwich loaf pictured above not only looked delicious, it tasted fantastic with wonderful crust and crumb – it was 12 oz unbleached white flour and 6 oz reg whole wheat flour and I used ODouls non alc beer (that is what was in the frig). As you can see, great rise and oven spring. Am also a devotee of Artisan Bread in 5 min/day method and have been using various doughs from their book for over a month now with great success and ease of preparation – I highly recommend it and their helpful website and blog. Haven’t bought bread in the store for over a month and don’t plan to. I don’t currently have a cloche and was wondering how some of your cloche recipes work if just baked on a stone without a cover. Not ready to invest in cloche just yet, but will be looking for terra cotta pot (lead free) to used with my baking stone. Love your site and have already sent in my order for the wisk and other items.

Sorry I did use the ANK recipe but I used my starter instead of beer and vinegar. Have made a loaf with starter and beer and that came yummy too. Sweet Thick moist dense texture. It was good like a meal in itself!

New comment on “sour” sourdoughs:
A while back, I commentd:

“What’s the difference between using a liquid, poolish-style sourdough starter and a firm, Biga-style starter: depends on the book you’re reading. Dr. Wood says the result is pretty much the same; Peter Reinhart in _Crust and Crumb_ says liquid is more sour, while in _Bread Baker’s Apprentice_ says firm is more sour; Maggie Glezer says that firm starters activated and nurtured in cool temperatures are more sour, while warmer more liquid starters are less sour, and that retarding sourdoughs in the refrigerator increases sourness.”

I just got a new book by Daniel Leader & Lauren Chattman entitled “Local Breads: Sourdough and Whole-Grain Recipes from Europe’s Best Artisan Bakers”, which is extremely well-written and which says that firmer starters are less sour, liquid are more sour. Sigh.

I wish I could say I’d experiment with it and come back with a more definitive answer, but if these experts who’ve been making sourdough for decades can’t come to a similar conclusion, such a venture on my part seems rather pointless.

Anyway, I do think that the most pronounced sour taste actually comes from retarding shaped loaves in the refrigerator overnight – dough has risen, gets shaped, as per the recipe, but instead of letting it sit for 20-30 minutes, it gets covered & put in the refrigerator immediately, to be taken ought the next day for an hour or so of warm-up, then baking. Of THAT I am at least almost certain.

The swirly one is gone but the other one is still around. I can take a pic of that one. As far as the flour, don’t know I took it from another cinn bread recipe. It is a small amount of flour. I baked it with directions from the ANK loaf (sandwich bread) in a glass loaf pan.
1/4 cup sugar
1 1/2 tsp cinn
2 tsp flour
1 egg beaten w/ 1 tbl water

How do post a pic?

Gia

To post a pic, send an email to Eric [eric@breadtopia.com] and ask him to post it with your particular message [message sender, date, time]

Rich

Hello all,
I just wrote this as a email reply but I’m not sure if this works so here I am posting it on Eric site (Thanks Eric, great site!) so my apologies if you get it twice.
In my quest to wake up with the smell of freshly baked/baking bread I have found retarding the dough in the fridge very use full.
My obsession for waking up with that fresh bread smell stems from my college years back home in Holland when I lived above a bakery. Especially around Easter time and X-mass it was unbeatable, I would wake up to all sorts of delectable aromas and only had to walk down (put on some clothes first..) and get some bread. My favorite was always the mini stollen with the almond paste inside of it…..mmm, delicious!
Anyway, the closest I’ve gotten is a freshly baked bread 2 hours after getting out of bed by using my variation of the NK of AKN recipes (I’m using the yeast version at the moment because it is more predictable, for me at least…). I start in the morning mixing all the ingredients plus a tablespoon of honey (another fun ingredient, there are so many different honeys out there and there all delicious and each imparts its own flavor to your bread) letting it ferment till evening, punch it, shape it, put it in the proofing basket and then right into the fridge. The next morning I’ll take it out and put it on top of the stove while I pre-heat the oven and cloche for 30mins, bake it 45 mins and rest it 45mins or 1hr if I can muster up the patience (not very often). E Presto! get out the butter and the home-made jam or cheese and it’s hard to keep the grin off your face…
It is not quite waking up to the smell of bread but as close as I have been able to get and unless I can get my wife to get out bed 2 hours before me (don’t bet on it!), this is what I’ll be doing until my kids are old enough to bake it for me, LOL…

Wait, there’s something I, a novice at no-knead bread, don’t understand. Why does the sandwich loaf work? I thought that a requirement of this process was baking inside a covered vessel or “fake” oven? Or is that not truly necessary with these recipes??? I’m puzzled.

FYI – My bread (CI ANK-see the picture above at 1-04-09) still made good toast a whole week later – was a little dry and crumbly for untoasted use, but really great toast. Had it stored at room temperature in tupperware type container. Excellent recipe. Thanks, AK

If you recall my post of Jan 4 regarding my attempt at cinnamon/raisin bread, it was my belief that while it wasn’t too bad, there were some short-comings. Several of you had suggestions, and I incorporated them into my next attempt.

The next attempt took the form of Eric’s ANK sandwich loaf. Instead of using the beer & vinegar though, I used 4oz. of apple cider along with 8oz. of water.
I also used 18oz. of KAF white bread flour, rather than adding any whole wheat, and omitted the 2TBS of sugar. Otherwise, it was the same amounts of ingredients as Eric’s sandwich loaf.

After the 18 hour ferment, I put the dough out on my floured surface, and folded it over. When I did the last loaf, after the recommended 10 or so folds, the dough became too elastic to spread out to a flat semi rectangle, so this tiime, I only folded it over 3 times, and spread it out flat.

This time I coated the flat dough with an egg wash, allowed it to set for a minute or two, and sprinkled the dough with the cinnamon/sugar mix. I then rolled it up jelly-roll style, pinched the ends & seam together, and placed it seam side down in the glass bread pan to do it’s second rise.

I had some distractions while making the bread, and about half-way through the 2nd rise, I noticed the 1/2 cup of raisins setting on the table. I had forgotten to put them in before rolling up the dough. #*@&*#@! Oh well, I figured I might as well let it go just as a cinnamon swirl loaf. I baked the loaf in accord with Eric’s time and temp instructions. During the last 10 minutes of baking, I brushed some of the egg-wash on the top of the loaf, and sprinkled it with raw turbinado suger. That turned out to be a nice touch.

I was also doing a 2nd loaf of ANK rye bread. It was the same as Eric’s ANK round whole wheat loaf, except that I substituted 5oz of Red Mill dark rye for the whole wheat flour, and added 1TBSP of carraway seeds

As soon as the cinnamon swirl came out of the oven, I put my baking vessel in the oven and set the temp to 500F for 30 min. After the pre-heat I put my rye loaf in the baking vessel and lowered the temp to 425F. After the 30 min bake time, I un-covered the baker and let it go for another 10 min. I then checked the internal temp of the bread and it was only at 195 F. I tented the loaf and let it bake for another 10 min, which did the job.

As soon as I took the rye out and racked it to cool, a friend of mine showed up to go out to lunch. When we returned, we had to check out the bread.

I cut both loaves in half and sent half of each home with my friend. Later, he emailed me that his girlfriend ate all but one slice of the cinnamon loaf, and only let him have one slice.

Anyway, as soon as I post this, I’ll send Eric an email with some pictures of my effort.

Rich

Hi Rich

Whenever the dough gets a mind of its own, just let it rest a bit—ten minutes or so. It relaxes and permits you to tease it again—fold it, roll it, stretch it, whatever.

Karil

Moisture might help as might folding the dough (1/3 from top toward bottom, 1/3 from bottom toward top, 1/3 from left toward right, 1/3 from right toward left, flip, back in the rising pan, cover) instead of kneading between risings. Perhaps additional time on each rising to let the carbon dioxide get those holes going for you.

Hi, Barbara

From reading your post, I’m not certain what kind of flour you used in your bread – you mention high gluten flour, but also talk about rye bread. Rye flour has almost zero/zed gluten in it, so if you used a lot of rye flour, there’s not much likelihood you would get much rise.

Another possibility is that your yeast is dead or worn-out. You can proof yeast to make sure it’s very active by putting a little bit in some lightly-sugared water, waiting 5-10 minutes and seeing it if produces a lot of bubbles. If it doesn’t, you need new yeast.
(I can’t recall the exact amounts of yeast, water and sugar to use for proofing, but I’m sure someone else here can provide the information.)

I made my first two loaves on Sunday. The first time I’ve ever made bread, and not only was it edible, it was really good! The crust was beautiful, the crumb perfect. I made one loaf of white and one of wheat, and we like both. I can’t wait to try again with different types of beer.

For reference, I used fast-acting yeast because I couldn’t find instant (I’ll order some from Breadtopia soon) and the first rise was closer to 20 hours. I used Sam Adams Boston Lager and I used bread flour as my white flour, not all-purpose.

Thank you for this site! I never though I’d made bread from scratch, now I can’t wait to do it again.

Jefrey, and anyone else,,

Yeast is not all the same, but they are all similar. Check out this web site:

http://breaddaily.tripod.com/yeast.htm

If you have ever had questions about what kind of yeast you can substitute when you run out or how to store unused yeast, then look no further than the chart on the site!

A word about natural yeast and starters. There is yeast in the air almost everywhere. It is carried with the wind and is part of the environment. If you have a starter, it will eventually take on the characteristics of the ‘wild yeast’ where you live. While I started with a ‘San Francisco’ sourdough starter, I am sure that at this point I have a ‘South Florida’ sourdough starter. Especially since Florida is a state where grapes are grown commercially. ( that makes for lots of yeast in the air to be transported by the wind ) Not that this is a bad thing. My starter makes great sourdough bread.

Happy Baking.

Harvey
“Man does not live by bread alone, sometimes he needs a little butter too.”

Hi, Harvey

Helpful link – thanks.

I just read “Local Breads”, a new book by Daniel Leader, who also wrote “Bread Alone” (and who owns/runs a bakery by that name in New York State), and he actually had samples of sourdough starter tested in a lab, and the results completely validate the notion that sourdough starters become “localized” over time. (Incidentally, “Local Breads” is quite well written, and has some interesting and entertaining stories about Mr. Leader’s search for recipes in various parts of Europe.)

At the same time, I have starters from three different sources (France, Alaska, & San Francisco). When I refresh them, I swear that I can smell a big difference between the cultures – and that may have more to do with the kind of bacteria in the culture, rather than the yeast. The Alaska culture also seems a lot “faster” – much quicker rise, although at the end of 8 hours the amount of rise is the same as the other 2. Also, I threw out a Russian-source culture I had, because I just didn’t like the flavor of the bread.

I think I’ll write to Mr. Leader, if I can find an email address and ask him what he thinks about the idea that, while yeast may become localized, bacteria might not.

Jeffrey,

I hope you get a response from Mr. Leader, and post it here. Everything authoritative I have been able to find suggests that yeasts, wherever they may come from, have nothing to do with the taste of bread. It may not matter much whether the yeasts are displaced, if the bacteria are not.

Kerry,

I usually use less salt than these recipes call for, simply as a matter of taste. I find that sourdough, or any other acid component, reduces the amount of salt I prefer in the bread.

On the matter of yeast, this is the best posting I have seen:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10455/fleischmann039s-yeast-confusion#comment-55298

Salt also appears to somewhat control the fermentation. So less salt and a longer fermentation SHOULD get about the same result. Be worth trying, anyway.

I also use less salt in most of my recipes and just watch the rise on the doughs.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh – I made the fatal mistake of assumption.

I was assuming that everyone refrigerated their doughs.

I control my rise by the length of time I keep the dough in the fridge.

If you check out the Artisan Bread in 5 minutes, you will see that the dough is kept out for 2 hours, then refrigerated for up to two weeks. But even in this recipe, I halved the salt.

Bob

Hi, Eric,
I’m awaiting the second rising (sounds religious, doesn’t it?) of my first ANK loaf, and started wondering if anyone had tried to make a ANK or NKB with a Pyrex or metal baking
pan under a La Cloche dome. Am considering buying the loaf type La Cloche unless this variation works.
Several friends and I are still baking the NKB on an almost daily basis, with some variations…guess we’re never satisfied. Latest is using Kalamata olives – sliced and rinsed – added during the dry ingredients mixing. Turned out delicious. Then noticed that I recently saw it on your site.
Thanks for your continuing efforts, Eric!
Tony

Thanks for the tip, Bob.
Will give it a shot.
Tony

Hi Marianne,
Could you please let me know at what Temperature you pre-heated the oven along with the pizzastone, I suppose.
Also, how long did you bake your bread covered and uncovered?
Since my rye bread always turns out rather moist inside I want to try to bake it on a pizzastone.
A baker told me, that rye bread baked in the dutch oven will always come out moist since the moisture in the dough does not have a way to escape.
My bread tastes super good; I would just like to have it dry inside.
Thanks,
Eva

Hi Eva,

About half an hour before I wanted to bake the bread, I put the pizza stone and the flower pot into the cold oven. I then turned the oven on to 500F and let both the stone and the pot preheat for about half an hour. I didn’t soak the pot.

I pretty much followed the directions in the recipe as written for the time and temperatures. I removed the flower pot for the last 15 minutes of baking time.

I’ve only done this a few times so I can’t say if or when the flower pot might develop a crack.

Hope that helps. Marianne

“Last night I made my first No knead in a 3quart corning ware covered pot. Previously I used a cast iron Dutch oven. Same recipe however the cook times were much longer to get internal temp to 200 …Why??”

All other things being the same, I’d say that the only apparent answer is: heat transmission of the cookware material. As the dough absorbs heat from the cookware, it takes time for the heat from the oven to be transmitted through the cookware material. It would seem that cast iron is a faster conductor of heat energy than Corning Ware.

My favorite loaf-pans are Pyrex. I never have problems with the crust burning next to the glass.

I also put the left-over beer into the fridge and used it again about a week later. The bread seemed to turn out just fine.

Hello

The last time I posted, I was planning to bake a 100% white whole wheat flour ANK loaf.

The date of that post was January 13, 2009, which turned out to be a rather fateful day for me. That evening, I burned down my kitchen, and ended up in the hospital emergency room with nasty 2nd degree burns on my left hand.

This weekend, now that everything is restored, with a new stove and all in the kitchen [ except for a new range hood and counter top, which is expected to be installed next week some time], I decided to proceed with the bread making.

The 100% [except for 3 tbsp of vital wheat gluten] white whole wheat flour loaf was baked using the following recipe:

15 oz of KAF white whole wheat flour [including the 3 tbsp of gluten]
2 tbsp raw sugar
1.5 tsp of kosher salt
0.25 tsp of SAF instant yeast
3 oz organic apple cider
7 oz + 2 tbsp of spring water.

All was mixed , formed into dough and left to ferment for 18 hours. The expansion of the dough was less than I had anticipated [perhaps because the dough was in the coolest corner of the kitchen - maybe 68 F.

This morning, I formed the dough into the typical ball and placed it on parchment paper in a frying pan, for the 2nd rise for 2 hours.

I placed my clay baking vessel in the oven and pre-heated it to 500 deg.
then reduced the oven temp to 420 F. and baked the loaf for 30 min. When I checked the loaf temp after 30 min, the inst. read thermometer only read 160 F. To make a long story short, I continued baking until I got a bread temp of 205 F. This took 1 hour of total bake time.

I'm wondering if the new stove is displaying the proper temp setting. I have to go out and get an oven thermometer to check it.

The bread cooled, and I cut a couple of slices. It all looked nice, but the bread had very tight crumb. [I'm going to forward Eric a couple of pics to post here].

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? Add more vital wheat gluten? More hydration? Oven not hot enough?

Well, the proof of the experiment is in the eating: The crust has a nice crunch to it and the inside is somewhat chewy, which is what I was trying to achieve. However, I think the loaf is too dense.

Also, I’m not crazy about the taste. It might have tasted better if the loaf was less dense. I think the loaf with 2 cups of KAF white bread flour and 1 cup of whole wheat tasted much better. I’m not sure I’ll try this recipe again.

Rich

love watching these vids but the first one made me cringe……I know youre not using it for aerospace precision but working on top of your scale is a no no.

Still, keep up the great work, this place has given me some big dreams

Here in Canada, Robin Hood Flour has a new product. Robin Hood Nutri Flour Blend is a blend of unbleached white flour and ground wheat bran. It tastes like white flour, but has the same amount of bran as whole wheat flour. Apparently it can be substituted for white flour in any of your recipes. I haven’t tried it in a no-knead recipe yet, but if I do, I’ll let you know how it goes.

Here’s the link to the website:
http://www.robinhood.ca/product.details.asp?pid=122&prodcid=9

Marianne

Rich,

If you’re interested in knowing the nutritional composition of your recipes, check out Nutritiondata.com.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/

Just input all of the ingredients in your recipe, and the program does all of the work and does a complete nutritional analysis. It will calculate the amount of fiber in the recipe as well.

Marianne

Your lovely sandwich loaf slipped out ever-so-easily from that glass Pyrex. I have NEVER had luck with glass. My bread ALWAYS sticks! What am I doing wrong? I’ve tried Pam-type sprays, straight olive oil (heavy or sprayed-on with a Misto), straight canola oil (heavy or sprayed-on with a Misto), and butter. I loved the crust in that glass. Any suggestions?

Secondly, I’ve seen it asked before, but I couldn’t find an answer. I’ve been doing the CI Almost NK since it was published regularly, but I have never used instant yeast, always standard. I don’t soften it prior in a bit of water, just throw it in the dry ingredients. I’ve never had a problem with performance. However, has anyone used both methods? Did instant actually result in a significant difference?

Thanks!

I don’t see anywhere in the recipe where it says how long the rises. Only the video mentions a 2 hour rise. Is the 2 hour rise the only rise?

You don’t give any rising times for either the breads on this page for for the banana bread, or the no knead loaf bread, or I just don’t seem them. Any help is greatly appreciated. I know the original no knead has an 18 hour and a 2 hour rise time. Thanks.

I want to use my starter to make the sandwich loaf. Do I just do as this site says and sub the starter for the yeast? Can I leave out the beer and go with all water? What I really want is just a whole-wheat sourdough sandwich loaf. Any suggestions? I have made the sandwich loaf the way the video shows and it was very good, but I have this great starter and don’t want to use yeast.

BJ
Go to Eric’s & my comments & photos here starting 02-28-09, re 100% whole wheat.

I, of course did not use sourdough starter. However, I did use 1 TBSP of vital wheat gluten per cup of flour. I still did not get a great rise. Eric suggested using a lot more instant yeast, like maybe a TSP. Maybe you want to increase the amount of starter. If cups of starter are equivalent to TSPs of instant yeast, you may want to try a full cup of starter – or work your way up. Start with a half-cup of starter.

I did not try increasing the yeast because I simply did not like the taste of the 100% whole wheat loaf, and will not bake it again.

Of course, maybe you like that flavor.

Rich

I have not tried increasing the yeast

Well, I made the recipe just as Eric said to with the exception of using yeast, I used my very active and healthy starter and used half the amount of vinegar. I got a great looking loaf. Rose up quite a bit more than I expected while in the oven. It is still cooling so have not tried it for flavor. I also have put together another loaf, as an experiment, omitting the beer altogether. Want to compare. Thanks for the advice from all. Starting to realize that it is all an experiment and even the mistakes are edible!

Eric, here are pictures of my latest bread making efforts. JPG 1194 is 50/50 white whole wheat and all purpose flour. 1195 is all purpose flour. 1199 is the crumb of the APF and 1204 shows the crumb of the white whole wheat. Even though I forgot the 2 Tbs of sugar in the WWWF it turned out great. Thanks

*Click to enlarge

I’m not a beer drinker. Can you please tell me what kinds of beer to use in the bread? Thanks.

I have made this bread with a number of different beers. I have used stout beer, pilsners, lagers and ales. My favorite was using a ‘wheat’ beer like Blue Moon. I just used the Budweiser American Ale and the bread was terrific, but I still like the wheat beer the best. The actual flavor differences are minimal to most people. Most of the time my family usually didn’t taste any differences. So go with it and try a simple, readily available beer like Bud. If you are not a beer drinker get a beer from a neighbor that drinks beer. Then give them some of the bread.

Harvey
“Man does not live by bread alone. Sometimes he needs some Butter as well”

Hi, Dave

Your bread has a very nice color – it definitely shouldn’t be that dark on the bottom at that stage of the baking. I have a few suggestions:

Try baking with the oven rack one slot higher.

Try inserting a cookie sheet under the dutch oven part way through the cook-time. When to do so is something to experiment with. If that doesn’t do a good enough job, maybe try a double-layer (insulated) cookie sheet.

Or maybe try the reverse – start with a cookie sheet under the DO, then remove it part way through the process.

I don’t know if this is relevant to your situation, but I’ll mention it anyway: I’ve noticed a real change in the way my bread dough is going together (I do a lot of kneaded doughs) since Spring has sprung here in Kansas. With the increase in
interior humidity since we turned off the heating system, my doughs have become a lot wetter, so I’m using less water in the recipes. Maybe you’re encountering the same thing, and maybe that’s having some effect on your baking, but I’m not certain enough to give any sort of advice in this area.

Adopted the almost no-knead methodology but instead of beer and vinegar I bake mine with 1 cup active sourdough starter, 330 grams of white bread flour, 110 grams of whole wheat flour, 2 teasoons salt, approximately 1 1/4 cup water. The water is variable because after making scores of no-knead bread, I learned to rely more on the way the dough looks than on following the exact water. It needs more or less water on different days. After 14 to 18 hours I knead a few times, shape, let rise on parchment for 4 to 5 hours, slash the top, then bake as usual. What a difference in result using the almost no-knead method. In the past, the bread tasted ok, but sometimes the dough spread out rather than up during the final rise. Next I’m trying the sandwich loaf.

RE: Difficulty slashing loaf before baking
I also find that the breadknives with a scalloped edge rather than the pointy edge slashes well. Dust loaf with flour before slashing.
Karil

In recent weeks I have spent a lot of time trying to source a reasonable priced ‘Diastatic Malt (liquid or powder) whilst the price in the U.S. is very good,the shipping charges to cross the ‘Pond’ are prohibitive and it works out as an increase of 600% in cost.
So far I have been unable to find any European outlet,( plenty of malt extract (non-diastatic)) which as far as I understand, is just added as a sweetener.
Which brings me to the point, in Eric’s video he mentions that ‘experiment with different types of beer’ and although I have added beer to many different recipes I have never been sure as to what its value is to the ‘end product’ if the beer is a ‘Real Ale’ or ‘Cask/Bottled Conditioned’ then it has not been pastuerised,filtered/and any other form of dilution (in other words the Real McCoy) Ergo, the Enzymes have not been destroyed and are free to get their ‘Naughty Way’ on the poor unsuspecting yeast, another Ergo, DIASTATIC!. On the other hand the Emasculated beers would need to have a couple of Viagra tablets added before it could do anything(don’t think I will continue in this vain, which after all is a family show !!!)
SO, have I found the ‘Holy Graill’ and forget all about high shipping costs?, stop trying to find ‘hulled Barley (to sprout and make my own D.M.P. now I can just tip in a glass of ‘Conditioned’ beer’!
Unless anyone knows different !
Happy Bread-making to All
James Smart
Dorset
England

I am curious, as to why I have to throw out perfectly good starter in the feeding process. If I start out small enough, (I don’t have to start with a cup of flour and one of water), could I not just feed it, adding to the starter and not throwing any out, at all? I know that I will have massive amounts of starter, but, I am planning on making massive amounts of bread. My sisters and I will be baking all day long. I guess we plan on using up all the starter during our bread baking marathon. We have a large family, and they love our bread. We like being frugal and can’t stand the thought of throwing something good out. Can anyone help us understand why we have to throw out the starter as we feed it? If it is thrown out due to the subsequent feedings creating a large volume, that is okay with us to have. We will use it up quickly. Help!

My thoughts exactly- when I know I will be baking more than one loaf I let the starter build up to the amount that I will be needing. I loathe waste but I have given away all the starter I can- people have started to avoid me- LOL!

As a point of information the Laurel’s Kitchen Bread Book (first printing circa 1984) has in it a very nice recipe for a yeasted cornmeal bread. This tidbit in response to Bruce’s post of March 1, 2008 in which he states he had not previously heard of such a bread recipe.