Sourdough No Knead Method

Thank you for the great video. When I tried to duplicate your method (using 4 oz ww flour and 12 oz white), my dough was very wet and spread out resembling a thick pizza crust even after folding over twice and adding more white flour.
I've had consistent success with the regular no-knead recipe when I've incorporated up to 1/4 cup whole grains. My sour dough starter is King Arthur, is very active and the consistency looks like yours. I used ordinary AP flour for the sourdough bread (ran out of bread and high protein flours) but figured that shouldn't make a huge difference with this recipe. The first rise went 20 hrs. At 18 hrs it looked like yours. Could I have overproofed? Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm anxious to make this work.
Thanks again for all the work you put into this instruction.
Jeannie

Hi Jeannie.

It's hard for me to tell what your problem might be. Since you're using 16 oz of flour and, I assume 12 oz of water, the only thing I can think of that would make it so much wetter than mine is maybe you keep your starter at a much higher moisture level. Mine is pretty thick. Some people keep theirs very liquidy. I'm thinking that if you just play around with the amount of flour you add at the beginning and experiment with the proofing time a little, you'll get it the way you want. Your situation sounds more like an aberration that a big problem. But please do let me (us) know what you figure out.

Eric and Denyce,
Thanks very much for your quick response. I'm about to try again with KA bread flour. Besides having too wet a dough, I probably over-proofed it as it began to deflate after 16 hrs. I used a proofing basket and wound up dropping a coiled blob into my preheated cast iron pot as the dough was too wet to hold or support.
As I was deciding whether to toss my baked sourdough flatbread or turn it into bread crumbs, my husband took a bite and said that this bread had 'real potential' and was absolutely the best bread I'd ever made!
Re: sourdough starter - Is it necessary to reduce a refrigerated starter by half and feed it 12 hrs before each baking session (to keep acidity right per KA)? I bake bread once or twice weekly.
Do you sell just the base of the La Cloche, new or used? I have a top (broke 2 bases) and have been using it with a pizza stone.
Jeannie

Sounds like you're close, Jeannie. The only reason I mention reducing your quantity of sourdough starter prior to feeding it is to reduce the amount of new flour you have to add in order to double it. No sense in doubling a ton of starter if you're only using 1/2 cup or so at a time. There are so many personal preferences and opinions about the best feeding schedule, I'm almost a little reluctant to offer mine. Almost! I like to feed mine 6-12 hours before baking as I seem to get better oven spring (more and faster rise when baking) as the yeast population is certainly happy and in top form. Some people intentionally "starve" their starters prior to baking as this tends to produce a more sour bread. Since you are going after the oven spring thing, you might want to feed it a couple times the day before baking.
Oh, and the doubling of the starter thing is also a general guideline. Sometimes I just toss a little flour and water in to tide it over and I know one baker who says triple or quadruple when feeding. Take your pick.
I've made a note to call the cloche company on Monday to see if I can buy just a few spare bases as they seem to be the more likely half to break. I'll email you directly.

Eric

Hi Eric, I made your no-knead sourdough bread this weekend and it was delicious! Only one problem, it was not a big enough loaf! We almost finished off the whole thing at one meal. HA. Thanks for the good advice and some wonderful starter. Terry

I have been using a starter I got from a friend that has been fed a diet of skim milk and AP-KAF in equal measures. I had been using a strain that I started using water but this smells so much better, plus it's an old starter. Is there anything I should know about the care and feeding using skim milk?

Thanks,
Eric

Hi Eric. I'm not aware of any differences in how they are managed or anything in particular you need to know. I used to use milk also. See how a finished loaf using each compares. Better yet, see how they compare and report back here to let us know!

I've been baking sourdough breads for a while, but recently joined the ranks of heart patients, so no salt and low to no fat allowed. I started using salt substitute, potassium chloride, in equal amounts rather than sodium. Anything I need to know in baking breads with salt substitutes?

For everyones information, It is my opinion that potassium chloride has a noticeable "flat" taste compared the the flavorful depth of salt. I hope to grow accustomed to the change in flavor soon, a small price to pay for my health.

Just finished my first ever loaf of sourdough bread. I used your recipe and 1/4 cup of an active starter which a friend furnished. The loaf is beautiful and rose even more than does the yeast version. Unfortunately, I am giving the loaf to the starter friend so I cannot comment on the flavor. It is really a joy to give such a beautiful loaf away.

That's a great story, Jerry. Thanks.

Conrad,
I don't know how the salt substitute will effect the yeast activity. You might have to fool around with levels to discover how or if the Potassium will control the yeast or if you maybe need to adjust the yeast level.

I do know that a persons tolerance or sensitivity for regular salt is a learned experience. It is well documented in French cooking books and noted chefs that one grows a need for more salty food over time. That's why some older chefs will occasionally over salt things and are oblivious to the tastes of less desensitized pallets. The good news is that I suspect in a short time you will find yourself a new "normal" and will find salted foods inedible.

Eric H

I'm not sure on the science, but… I'm using a recipe that does not include yeast. Is the active bubbling things in my starter considered yeast? I know that salt is detrimental to yeast. I also know the reason that cooks use recipes and bakers use formulas is that baking formulas can not be altered without affecting critical actions in the dough. Fat content, binding agents, and catalysts etc are important to success.

My main curiousity is if I am missing anything about the potassium chloride as opposed to sodium.

We are in the middle of Mardi Gras down here in New Orleans, it is busy for me at work, so it will be after next week, Feb 20th, before I have time to experiment.

Thanks for the response.

As a retired engineer who enjoys math and chemistry, I am used to weighting nearly all cooking ingredients of less than one tablespoon. I use electronic scales which weigh in one gram increments and convert ounces to grams. That said, I recognize that the NKB is not a precise recipe, but none the less, I am curious about what 1/4 cup of starter should weigh. Have you ever weighed yours?

I haven't weighed mine. Only because I keep the hydration level of my starter fairly constant so the 1/4 cup I use is fairly constant from one loaf to the next.
Working with sourdough is a funny (and potentially tricky) thing since even if our 1/4 cups weighed the same, we might have very different acidity levels or even strains of yeast and bacteria in our cultures.
It makes me think no bread recipe is really that precise. Which makes sense given the wide range of results people get from the same recipe. More so with sourdough recipes.

This video is great, please don't shorten it! At least not too soon. I will have to watch it several more times, because today I had my first try, with a 2 Romertopf Bread pans ( I don't have a dutch oven or your La Cloche yet) and the dough was not foldable. I will give it some more tries. Best regards from Vienna Doris

Good Morning Eric,
Thank you for shipping my basket. I enclose a photo of my success with your starter and video. The bread is wonderful and we will continue to enjoy it, thanks to your wonderful instructions and starter. Taste and texture: fantastic!
Since I did not have my proofing basket yet, I used my Colander! I olive-oiled it well and sprinkled it with Oat Bran, that is all I had on hand. You can see how wonderful it worked!
The most tense moment was when I had to tip it out into the Cloche, I had no idea if it was going to come out. But it did! Thanks again, our life has been enriched with this lovely bread.
My next try will be to add a bit more wholemeal.
Kind regards from Christel

Eric,
Well I tried a loaf of both skim and water and honestly I couldn't tell the differance. I mean there could be but the crust and crumb were identical and equally sour. I suppose the sourness is the one area where it's subjective. I use a small amount of rye in my AP flour to boost activity and help the flavor.

HI: Tried and failed. First rise was fine but no structure when it came out. Too wet. USed recipe and bread flour. Any ideas on what to change the next time? I have heard the NK concept is very hard with sourdough. Should I reduce water, reduce starter, ?

I baked a couple batches of no knead over the weekend using the parchment method of lowering into the cloche base. I got much better results in the oven spring and over all appearance. The idea of dropping the dough the last 6 inches into a hot base and expecting it not to deflate I think is contrary to everything I know about baking. Gently lowering the dough into place works well. I don't have any of the release foil but that might also work. I didn't bother to try and tuck the excess inside and lowered the cover over the paper with no bad effect.

The other thing that I think is being missed by some people trying the no knead for the first time is that while it's true you don't HAVE to knead, the results will be consistently better if you adjust the flour/water ratio to the point where you can just fold the dough and handle it somewhat. You don't have to call it kneading but a couple of folds will go a long way toward getting a rise in the oven. The original video of the owner of the Sullivan Street bakery and Mr. Bittman and also Martha Stewart clearly shows the dough being french folded and not the consistency of glop but rather a slack but manageable dough.

This formula and technique delivers a great crispy bread but the science still applies.

Hi Allen.

I'm afraid it's too difficult to trouble shoot from here.

Have you been successful using instant yeast instead of sourdough for your leavening? Instant yeast would be easier. If you're just starting out, start there first.

Hi Eric,

Good points. I think you're right on there!

Here's my method for putting no-knead dough into baking pan:
I add enough flour to my dough so it's still sticky but can be shaped into a round loaf. Then I use 2 medium or long-handled spatulas (metal or heat-proof plastic) to lift the shaped dough and gently place it into the pot. No flipping the dough and no chance of burned hands. And the dough doesn't deflate. I use either a 4 qt cast iron Dutch oven with cast iron lid or a pizza stone with a LaCloche top for baking.
Hope this helps.
Jeannie

I made my first no knead and it was the Cranberry-Pecan Extraordinaire. It looks beautiful, but the bottom is burning before the initial 30 min. at 500 degrees is over. I know my oven temp is right ( I have an oven thermometer.) I am doing it in a dutch oven. The first loaf (I did a double batch) was done in the pan part of the D oven, the 2nd was done with the whole thing inverted and the bread cooked on the lid, more in the fashion of the La Cloche. I have the rack in the oven a little more than below the middle to accommodate the D oven. It is a gas oven. Would it be possible to lower the temps 25-50 degrees each? Thanks, Beth Adams

Hi Beth,

I haven't used a Dutch oven yet but from all the feedback I've received so far, it seems there can be quite a bit of difference in the baking characteristics between a Dutch oven and a la cloche. And even between one D.O. and another.

So yes, definitely try lowering the temp 25-50 degrees as you suggest and that should help

It just occurred to to me that the reason it may be doing this is because it is a darker surface. In all of my baking, I forgot that reducing the heat is standard for darker pans. I'll try that next time. Also, I noticed that it had risen the first time in only abt 12 hrs instead of 18. Is that just my luck or is 18 hrs a steadfast rule (even if it looks "done")? I would LOVE it do be a 12 hour thing!! We just cut into it and are in HEAVEN!! My Husband went to Portugal for 2 years and LOVED the bread. I have tried everything to get a similar bread, from spritzing the bread to cooking with damp bricks in the oven. This was perfect!! He wants me to make more today. LOL Also, I have never made such a sour sourdough loaf as I did this time. I have tried for abt. a year now. That looooong rise did the trick. Thanks so much for your site! Beth

Now that we've cut into it, how do you suggest it is stored to retain the crust texture? Would it do to just set it cut face down on a board?

Beth,
Lean french type breads (flour, salt, yeast(sd), and water do not store well. The most you should expect is 24 hours. I do set it on the board face down just to keep the cut side soft. Other formula with dairy products (butter, milk etc) oil, eggs or yogurt all will allow the bread up to a week on the counter. Bags will help keep the bugs out but at the sacrifice of the crust.

Eric

Regarding the 12 hour rise vs. 18 hours. You can move on to the fold and rest stage as soon as the dough has risen fully, you just may not be getting as much flavor as with the longer proof. And if you want more sour, you really want to go longer.

It's awesome you are getting great results. I love your enthusiasm. Your bread life will never be the same! Now you can have some fun experimenting all you want knowing you can always come back to the basics if you want to be sure of the turnout.

I am very excited to experiment now. Is you basic NKB recipe (sourdough) one that I can use for pretty much any variation I can think of? Are there any ingredients I should stay away from that would be unhealthy for the sourdough? I heard somewhere that cinnamon, garlic, and onions ore harmful to the bacteria. Thanks for all of the help so far. This has been SO wonderful!!

I almost always use just sourdough for leavening in all no-knead recipes, and most other bread baking for that matter. For me, it's almost as easy as dried yeast. There are certainly flavor advantages, plus there are some indications that there are health advantages as well.

I'm not familiar with the problem of onions and garlic inhibiting sourdough growth, but I know from experience that cinnamon can be a problem. I think there may be some technique for using cinnamon in sourdough, for cinnamon raisin bread for example, I just can't recall what it is.

Thanks loads! I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything about it. My batch of NK normal sourdough is going to cook today. I'll let everyone know how the oven temp reduction goes.

Anyone care to know what happens when you let it rise the 2nd time for 8 hrs instead of 2……? Oops! Cooked ok, but WAY flattened because the structure was too airy (I'm assuming). Lesson learned. If there is a chance you will be gone longer than you thought, stick it in the fridge to slow down.!! Trying again later this week.

Hi Eric,
Thanks so much for your site, it really has been the best source of sourdough information since I started getting interested in creating a starter and then using it to bake bread and other recipes. I am currently "into" No Knead Sourdough Bread and have a problem with your video method in that my oven's maximum temperature is 230 degrees (I am in France, I think that's around 450 degrees in US terms). Is there a way of compensating for this that you know of?

Eric,

Great site. Thanks for the tips and techniques. I have been successful in creating a very active sourdough starter and the dough for my loaves. It rises for 18-20 hours then I fold it and set it too proof for the 2 hours. This is where things don't go as smoothly as the video suggests. The final proof takes much more than the 2 hours to get to the dimple stage. The dough seems wet. Will this make a difference? About 2 out of 3 loaves take forever to proof. Temperature is about 75 degrees in the kitchen for this phase.

Hi Kevin,

How does the bread turn out after you bake it?

Not very good tasting to be honest. Everything looked okay inside (airy, soft) but
the taste was rather bland, not very sourdough tasting.
Thanks.

I have found that getting a stronger sourdough flavor can be one of the trickier things to accomplish.

Regarding "bland", I'm not sure what to tell you that you haven't no doubt though of yourself. I don't suppose you forgot to add the salt or maybe not enough? I've done that more than once and the result is something akin to styrofoam.
You might have to experiment with different brands and types of flour. Adding a bit of whole wheat and/or rye flour can bring out more flavor without taking too much from the airyness.

Great video and it's simply explained, I have only one little concern and that is with spoon banging. May I make a suggestion? If you want to bang or clean your metal spoon on the side of the bowl after measuring or stirring, either use a plastic bowl or plastic spoon, glass chips could get into your dough. Beginners just might repeat it. Thank you for your kind attention, Sarah

Thanks, Sarah. Good to have these things pointed out. I wasn't even aware I was doing that.

Eric

Eric - I have been using the No-Knead method very successfully for the past several months. Your Danish dough whisk is great.

If after the first rise of 18 hours I find I don't have time to complete the process and want to wait till the following day, can I refrigerate the dough until I am ready to continue? If so, how long could I refrigerate it? Thanks.- Stan

Hi Stan,

Refrigeration is a great way to slow fermentation and so lengthen the process. There are many recipes which call for refrigeration to do just this and attempt to bring out more of the flavor in the grains.

Since refrigeration only slows the process and does not suspend it, I'm wondering if waiting until the end of the 18 hour first rise and then refrigerating over night might be giving it too much time. Since I've never tried it, I don't know what you would find. How far along your fermentation comes in that first 18 hours is going to vary too depending mostly on room temp. I'm finding 18 hours during the much warmer summer weather is too long and I'm cutting back to 16 or so.

Your thinking is good but I guess it comes down to an experiment thing. If you do play around with this, I'd love to hear how it goes. It's nice to learn from other's mad science experiments.

Eric

Stan and Eric, I accidentally left mine for the 18 (+6!!) hours. I looked at it after the 18 but didn't have time to do anything with it. It was a mess. If you are going to let it rise in the fridge, I'd consider putting it in the fridge for the entire time. I've done that and had great success.

How about a video for making sourdough oblong loaf?

Do you use the same quantities of ingredients for oblong loaf?

hi eric..great site…my sour dough starter is just about ready for use..started it on july 6 and started feeding 2 times on monday the 9th..anyway the recipe i am referring to is youors….the original recipe(sullivan st) calls for 3cups of flour and 1/4 tsp yeast..yours calls for 2 and a half cups bread flour and 1 cup of whole wheat flour…except for starter ,everything else is the same as leahy/s bread…what does the extra 1/2 cup do?? and what happens if i just want to use 3 cups of bread flour???

Hi,

My husband and I are allergic to wheat but can eat spelt. Has anyone tried the sourdough slow rise bread with spelt flour or does anyone have any tips on baking with spelt. Thanks.

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the link I'm going to try a spelt starter following your recipe, and use white spelt flour (which I bought in London) for the bread. I'll let you know how it turns out. I live in Hong Kong which is very hot and humid so I'll be watching the dough very carefully during rising as I understand spelt flour is very easy to overproof.

Hi Eric,

Finally tried the spelt no knead sourdough bread. My attempts at making a spelt starter ended in disaster so I made a whole wheat starter like your recipe and then used spelt for subsequent feedings. The dough was much slacker than yours (too slack to shape) and had to be poured almost into the proofing basket. I noticed in the video that your dough is stiff enough to form a ball and to handle. Is this the consistency I should be aiming for in which case I would need to add a lot more flour or a lot less water? As mentioned before, Hong Kong is extremely hot and humid in the summer (90 degrees and 93%)so should I be making adjustments to compensate for this? Finally how stiff can I make the dough and still get a decent result? The ad vice on your site has been a lifesaver. Thanks.

Hi Bina,

Well, I would certainly try adding more flour (or reducing water) to get a dough stiff enough to handle a little easier. It's challenging enough just working with mostly spelt flour. Add the heat and humidity and you've given yourself a bit to work with. I'm not helping much. I think you'll be alright if you're willing to experiment long enough to find a formula that works. Maybe you'll get lucky and get there sooner than later.

It is interesting to hear and learn from others' trials so please do report back again.

Good luck.

Eric, I recieved my starter from you on Tuesday. The stuff is very powerful! I fed it as close to your directions as I could and I am now in my final rising stage on a No Knead bread. I'll let you know how it bakes up.

I can't wait to have bread for dinner tonight.

Thanks, Judy

Nice! I'm looking forward to your final results.

Eric

hi eric..well i mixed up a batch of "homemade starter" using wheat flour and pinapple juice..i then mixed a batch of nk bread using 3 cups of bread flour,1/4 c of the starter and 1 and 1/2 cups spring water and salt of course….started the 1st rise and its going slow..will keep you posted…ps the dough is a little drier that the basic recipe..what do you think???

Hi Eric,

My problem baking bread seems to be the oven. When I use high temperatures, the bottom of the load burns like coal. Any tip on how to avoid this problem ?

Tks

Eric the bread was wonderful. I thank you. The starter is wonderful. I make the no knead bread all the time and this was a delightful change using sourdough starter.

I have pictures posted on photobucket.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v203/judyrent/Bread/

You can see that the bread has a denser crumb but that is fine. The flavor is great.

I have the starter growing in the kitchen and my husband is afraid that it will soon take over our house.

I am thinking about biscuits. Do you have a recipe suggestion?

Thanks again. Judy

Gustavo I have the same problem.

I have to bake at a bit lower temp and less time.

My latest bread was a bit more done than ideal.

I just experiment and adjust acordingly. I wonder if weather has any effect on the cooking temp. I am in south Texas.

okay its me again..i just tasted my semi flat sd nkb and its delicioous…nice crust with large holey crumb..so heres whaat i did and didnt do and maybe you can figure out why no oven spring…dough rose to double for first fise..i folded directly in bowl for 15 minute rest and did not add any flour…2nd rise in lined proofing basket well floured,but i did not add any dough to 2nd handling either(idont know why i didnt) not much rise and when i flipped into pot alot stuck oh and i used 1/4 c started to 3 c br fl and 1 and 1/2 ts salt and 1and 1/2 c water…

Hi Eric,
I planned ahead to bake my first loaf of KN sourdough bread today. I used your starter recipie, by the way , the starter is very active! it was ready to jump out of the container and run away when I let it set after feeding it to use today!
I followed your recipie, and I found during the mixing process
it was very difficult to use my hands, too sticky to handle.
I managed to get it well mixed and into the proofing stage.
WOW it tripled in volume in about 14 hours, then seemed to run out of gas and by the 18th hour it actually fell some, (about an inch) is that normal?
I turned it out onto the floured surface ( a real sticky task) I floured my hands and the bread pretty well, hoping it would incorporate itself into the dough to help me handle it as well as reduce the wetness. I was able to do the folds and and quickly form it into a ball. Now comes my dilemma,
I have no proofing basket, La Cloche or dutch oven. So I placed the dough which I shaped into a log in a bread pan that was lightly oiled and coated with cornmeal for the final rise, I will just leave it in the pan to bake when it rises about an inch and a half over the top. I think I should bake it this way at a much lower temp like 375, for approx 30 min, perhaps tenting with aluminum foil for part of the time. What do you think?
I plan to buy the basket and La Cloche later, but for now I have to use what I have, and I just could not wait to try this!

I am worried, after an hour and a half my dough has not risen much at all? I have had it in a draft free spot in the kitchen covered with a cloth, the room temp in the kitchen is 77 degrees. I wonder if the starter ran out of gas after the the tremendous performance of the first 14 hours of the first proof? I am giving it another hour and will check it again.
Does this sound typical, I hope it will rise enough to bake it?

Ok, It is now obvious that my final rise phase has miserably failed. After 4 and half hours the dough has not risen more than a 1/4 inch in the pan. I just don't understand it.
The starter was extremely active when it was added to the dough mix, the first proof was incedible, the rest of the handling was just as the video demonstrated and I followed the steps exactly, the only exception being , instead of putting dough into proofing basket I put it in a bread pan?
What could have gone wrong? the room temp is Ideal, I used King Arthur bread flour and whole wheat flours as the recipe suggests. The starter has obviously spent it's entire ability to produce gas in the first 18 hour rise period. I don't understand why it just gave up?
any thoughts??
Any suggestions on how to revive my lifeless lump of dough into a riseable reincarnation that will be bakeable and hopefully edible?

Gustavo - In addition to what Judy said, moving the oven rack that you bake on to a higher position in the oven might help some.

Hi Judy,

Thanks for the link to the pictures. That bread certainly did turn out well, especially for whole wheat. I don't have any recipe suggestions for biscuits but that sounds like a good topic for a future video. I do have plans for a no knead dinner rolls recipe/video, but that will be a ways down the road.

Ronnie - The dough rising during the first rise says your starter is fine. While I can't say for sure what's behind the no oven spring, when that happens to me it's usually because I let it proof too long and the starter kinda goes "over the hill". This is more likely to be a problem (if you consider it a problem) during the hot summer months when the starter seems to go ballistic. Shortening the proofing time might help, even as much as a few hours.

Hi Mike,

I'm afraid I'm a little late to help you with this loaf. Not that I could anyway. I think the problem is the same as Ronnie's that I addressed just above. Sometimes, the starter goes a little crazy and peaks too early. I think this is why people refer to "adventures" in sourdough baking, since it's difficult to predict the outcome all the time. I still find myself scratching my head sometimes.

77 degrees is pretty warm for bread baking. It's much easier to bake bread in the winter when your house may be a lot cooler.

I don't think there's any "reviving" possible with this one. Do you have a dog that likes bread? It could make a nice substitute for a bone.

Before I used dedicated bread proofing baskets, I got by just fine by draping a floured linen type towel inside a medium sized bowl.

Thanks for the comments. I think if you just experiment with shorter proofing times, and sometimes just wait for a little luck to smile on you, you'll be fine.

Eric

Hi Eric,
Thanks for the input, I tried adding a little more starter and flour and then kneaded it a bit and it rose fine, I baked it but it fell in the oven, so it sort of resembled an ancient Greek discus, ha ha ha… I will try it again with the A.C. turned up higher and proof it for a shorter time.
Thanks, Mike

It seems counter intuitive, but you might want to actually reduce (or at least not increase) the amount of sourdough starter you use. Using more starter consumes the available nutrients that much faster, so the rise peaks sooner… and fades sooner.

In fact, that's what I need to do next time as we're enjoying excessively hot and humid weather here in Iowa.

HI Eric,

I have been trying the no knead bread with sourdough and spelt flour due to multiple allergies in my family as I have mentioned previously. Here in Hong Kong the temperature is in the nineties and the humidity is 90%, so my early attempts were wet and soggy messes. I had to increase the amount of flour considerably. The first loaf proofed in about 8 hours which unfortunately for me was about 1.30 a.m. (I went to the kitchen for a glass of water at that hour and found the dough fully risen) I shaped, proofed and baked it in the middle of the night and wound up with a well risen, golden loaf which was not as holey as the others I have seen on this site (due to the spelt I think) but very tasty and light nevertheless. The second loaf got the long proofing and behaved just like Mike's. The third time I proofed for 8 hours again albeit with a more sensible schedule and again got a good result. I think the secret is to go by how the dough looks rather than specific times and quantities. My second proof never takes more than an hour, sometimes even 50 minutes. I hope this helps people who live in less than ideal climates.

I usually have better bread if I only rise for about 12 hours. That goes for both regular no knead and the sour dough bread. As mentioned before, I am in south Texas and it is hot and humid here. I am in an air conitioned home and the temp is about 75 degrees.

Made you whole-wheat sourdough starter…it was on course until the last feeding which produced a very stiff starter. Is this correct? Is there a way to make it a little more pourable as in your videos?

Hello Cee,

No problem - just add a little more water until you get the consistency you want.

I had some dried Carl's 1847 starter, and tried to revive it. Took over 2 days, but it did come back, then it sort of stopped for awhile (even though I was feeding it), then it seemed to come back again. I transferred it to a jar that I cleaned with some bleach, which I am sure I washed out completely, but the starter again seemed to die. Then it came back again. Any thoughts?

Decided to try and make a loaf with it. Modified the recipe to 1 cup whole wheat and 4 King Arthur unbleached (actually going for two loves) ,and added some butter. Because of the way the starter was acting, I used a full cup of it.

I want to do them in glass pans because I like the more "square" shape for sandwiches, and I used less water because I seem to feel it is better to have a dryer/firmer dough to keep it in the pan when rising.

It has been rising about 12 hours now, and not quite double. I have read the other posts, and I am concerned that the dough may not rise well in the pans. I am working in about 80-83 degrees.

I had the thought of making up some regular bread yeast, and kneading it into the dough before the pan rise. What do you think about that?

Hi Noel,

I don't know why your starter would die and then come back and then die again, unless it's just reacting to feeding. I do know that when you feed starter it usually reacts by getting very lively, bubbly and growing and then will appear to "die out" after it's used up much of it's available nutrients. But in this case, it hasn't really died out, it's just lying a little dormant until the next feeding.

With a healthy starter, your bread dough would rise to (or near) double in much less than 12 hours at 80-83 degrees. More like a few hours max. So maybe your starter is weak.

You could toss in a little regular yeast before the rise. Some recipes call for both sourdough and regular yeast.

Trying all these different things will certainly speed your learning process.

Eric what kind of plastic bags are you using to cover your rising dough in your videos?

I am having trouble finding something like them.

Also I have a real science experiment going on in my kitchen. I have about 10 batches of starter going. I have noticed that sometimes when I take it out of the fridge it has a grayish tint on the top of a couple. I have been tossing those out. Is there something going wrong? They look ok when they go in the fridge.

I had that great big plastic bag for ages and I don't know where it came from. I really liked it and wish I had more. Now that it's worn out, I've just been using the plastic bags that come off the rolls at the grocery store. They're not as big but I can fit the bowl I use most often in them and I know they're food grade.

10 batches? Wow! That's ambitious.

I've seen that grayish tint on occasion. It seems to me that it forms when the starter hasn't been used in a while. If it sits longer, a gray or yellowish liquid (alcohol) starts to form on the surface. In either case, you don't have to throw it out unless the starter completely dies for some reason. You can bring it back to it's former pristine self with a few feedings.

With 10 batches, it's quite a task keeping them all fresh all the time. So it does seem like you're more apt to see this kind of thing now and then.

Well Eric,

Guess what. About the time I finished the post below, I checked my 2-loaf rise again, and it had doubled, so I took it out of the bowl, cut in half, folded each a few times, and rolled up and put in glass loaf pans. I set them in a cool oven, and let them rise about 4 or 5 hours, and they poofed up quite well. Slashed them and baked at 375 for about 30 minutes.

They looked great, were pretty light (started at about 1-1/2 lb.) and tasted good. Only, didn't taste like sourdough. I don't know what the heck I have in my starter. Got the clan at Carl's to send me a new starter.

By the way, I check my bread for doneness with a probe instant read thermometer, and I think about 175 is right, but would sure like a comment on that. I think this would be a much better way to check for doneness, especially for newbees. Nothing worse than burning or having a doughy center after all the time & work.

- Noel

Eric, I know that ten batches is ambitious. I just can't seem throw away the extra when I feed. There are only three of us here and only so much bread we can eat.

One of the greatest things about baking bread besides eating it, is that I have sparked an interest in my 17 year old Son.

We did the pizza yesterday. I did not get a picture because by the time my Son put it together and cooked it, I was dead tired and in bed. He said it was great.

Next time I hope he gets started earlier.

Judy

That's great about your son.

One of the things I like about the sourdough pizza recipe is it uses 1 1/2 cups of starter, so a great way to use up excess starter in a hurry.

Thanks Mark, for the nice comments, photo and feedback…

"Thanks to your wonderful video filled website.  And many thanks for taking personal time to answer questions and offer advice.  Having used your starter recipe, and sour dough no-kneed method, I have made my first successful loaf.  The La Cloche baker worked as you have stated.  The crumb and crust was perfect.  Awesome website and great products."

Regards,
Mark

Eric:

As previously mentioned, I have had great success with your starter and round LaCloche baker. I also ordered the oblong baker, and have three questions. To bake on the oblong, does it require either the same receipe, or more dough, or less dough? Does cooking time remain the same or what changes need to be made? Have you any videos using the french loaf baker?

Best Regards,
Mark

Hi Mark,

I use the same no knead recipes for the oblong Cloche as the round one. Those recipes are about the maximum that the oblong will accommodate. The round La Cloche will handle a larger loaf.

If you click on the "No Knead Recipe Variations" link and watch the Cranberry Pecan video, I think that's the one where I'm using both the round and oblong cloches.

I'll have to try making Sourdough NKB! Great video.

Eric attempts I have produced a reasonable soughdough loaf thanks to your video and instruction.I am delighted with the result.Can I send you a pic? I am so excited with result.

Hi Frank. By all means! Email it to me and I'll post it.

Here's some photos from Frank's clearly successful baking venture.

Frank's comments… "I used your recipe but substituted a malted grain flour(5oz) for the whole grain. I did not have access to a cloche or dutch oven but baked it on a stone with an occasional squirt of water into our Stanley oil fired oven. Am looking forward to the next one."

I've just finished my fourth try at your no kneed sourdough. Once again I've gotten a very dense, brick that's about 1 1/2 " high. Last time I tried doubling the recipe, thinking that my cloche was oversized or something. I just wound up with a larger brick. I'm weighing all ingredients carefully. Following directions. What I'm getting is inedible. Can't figure out what's going wrong.

Hi Jana,

Is it just the sourdough no knead recipe you're having problems with? Have you had good results with the instant yeast version of the same thing?

the instant yeast version turned out fine.
I use an oblong la cloche. I don't know if they make several sizes of them or not, could the cloche be too big?

oh, I posted pictures of my no-kneed sourdough at sourdough@yahoogroups.com home page. One of our group members said my crumb looked fine. According to him he had better results with a much smaller container. I haven't had a chance to try that yet - have to aquire a smaller casserole pan or something. My starter seems to work find in other recipes, by the way. I'm sure that's important information.

I went nuts this weekend and made 3 different no-knead loaves. First was all white flour. I've read on other websites that longer ferments with LESS starter is the key to getting a more sour taste. I used about 1/8 cup of starter and put the dough in the fridge for 2 days. I then took it out and gave it 18 hours at room temp. The dough was extra soft, but it held its shape and baked up fine. The loaf came out great with extra large holes and that nice sourdough taste I was looking for. I also made a white/wheat, and one with steel cut oats. Both came out good. I gave the oat loaf a quick spritz of water before putting in in the la cloche, and it seemed to smooth out the crust. Thanks for launching this site. I hadn't heard of no-knead before, but after just one loaf it's my new favorite!

Thanks a lot for this post, Rhine. Many people are interested in knowing how to make their bread more sour and this looks like something that should work reliably for most people.

I've added a paragraph to the baking instructions above, directing people to your post. If you have a digital camera and feel like emailing a photo or two, I'd love to post them. Not that a photo can quite capture the flavor, but it's fun to put an image with the story.

Nice going on your results.

Eric

Hi Jena,

It's hard for me to tell why you're not getting good results with the sourdough starter. It seems more likely than not that the problem is with the starter itself. It may not be healthy enough. I use my oblong la cloche all the time with great results so I kinda don't think you'll see an improvement with another container. In fact the narrowish sides of the oblong cloche should be an added benefit.

When you feed your starter and leave it out at room temperature, does it about double in volume before it starts to fall back again? If you take a cup of starter and add a cup of flour and 2/3 - 3/4 cup of water, you should see about a doubling of the volume. You don't have to start with exactly a cup of starter. In testing, it just helps to add as much flour as the amount of starter you are starting with. And then add an equal weight of water to the amount of flour.

I was finally able to get the sourdough no knead to work for me. I cut my starter back to 1 teaspoon since I suspected that it was overproofing (the starter I have has been the most lively I've ever used since it was brand new) I also increased the white flour to 16 oz. keeping the whole wheat & flax meal the same. Seemed to do the trick. The last batch both looked and tasted great, the texture was very nice.

Hi Jana,

Wow, that is VERY interesting. Just one tsp of starter, who would have guessed? Nice job of sleuthing that one out.

This might also be the solution to the problem some have with baking in hot and humid weather, where the dough proofs way too fast.

Thanks a lot!

Eric

I just received an email from Nate Wilke with a photo of his first loaf of no knead sourdough. He used the Rhine Meyering delayed fermentation technique (see Oct. 7th post above) for a more sour taste. Flour was all KA "select artisan 100% organic AP flour". The bread was baked in a La Cloche clay baker.

Awesome looking bread, Nate. The crust looks perfect.

hi eric,,here's an update on my sourdough efforts; i used Carls starter and the following recipe; 1 cup of starter,almost 2 teaspoons of salt,3 cups of KA bread flour,and 1cup plus 2 oz of water..let it go for 12 hours,then a 15 minute rest on a lightly floured board..then into my baking pot for the second rise..31/2 hours…baked covered for 1 hr…the result…fabulous fabulous,,nice spring and lovely holes….i am now addicted…..thanks to you

ps..i forgot..the bread went into a cold oven(my pot was not preheated…saved alot of mess and time…baked at 450 degrees

Well, it had to happen eventually…I have experienced bread failure [/head hanging in shame]. When I measured out the ingredients, I really thought the dough was too wet–literally poured into the bowl. I went and checked the video, thought I might be close, and went ahead. Good first rise, but still very wet; could barely shape it into any kind of boule. Ok 2nd rise, but not spectacular; about 4 "coils" below the top of the proofing bowl I purchased from you. When I went to invert the bowl over my cloche, the skin stuck to the bowl, even though I had sprayed it with Pam and used cornmeal and flour. Of course, the rest deflated on being so rudely dumped into the cloche. Since the cloche was preheated and everything, I put it in anyway, figuring I had nothing to lose. When I took the lid off, the whole thing was only about 2 inches high (I immediately went and started another batch for a try tomorrow). Once it was cool enough to handle, I pulled it open. The outside was burnt, the inside still slightly gummy, although in it's defense, there was actually a good open crumb and a slight tang…..

I'm not sure if I mismeasured the water or misweighed the flour. My second attempt looks much stiffer; this time I just measured the flours with measuring cups. I was flipping back and forth online between the two NKB recipes, and I see that the yeast added one only uses 3C of flour, and the sourdough 3 1/2; maybe that's where I got confused.

Oh, well, if at first you don't succeed, try try again!
Mary Sue

Thank you so much for your encouragement, Eric! I was wondering…say, when I look at the dough tomorrow, I am sure it is too wet/too dry. Can I try and correct it before the second rise by adding flour or water? Is that going to screw anything up?

Good question. Now if I only knew the answer :). If you're pretty sure it's too wet, I think it should be fine to add some flour. The starter may like a little fresh food.
I would be reluctant to add water if it's too dry because it probably isn't going to be too dry and also because it can be a big ugly mess trying to get water incorporated in already mixed up and proofed dough.

Maybe someone else can chime in on this. That is if anyone else on the planet sees this.

I haven't tried the "no knead method" because I believe the kneading is important to gluten formation.

What I CAN say is that I have often add either water or flour to dough before setting up for the final rise. In both cases, I do so on a board, and, of course, knead the water/flour into the dough until it is absorbed.

I guess what I am trying to add here is that just because one is doing a "no knead" method, doesn't mean one can't do SOME kneading if necessary to change the consistency of the dough to get the hoped for final results.

After all, after all the work, time and waiting, why not try anything to get the dough to where you think it ought to be before the last rise. There is nothing sacred about "no knead", so do so if you need to.

- Noel

Wow! Barely a week goes by and I have a technique named after me. I'm honored! Like most loaves, it was consumed before I could take a picture, but Nate's pictures above are about what my loaves looked like. One of the characteristics I notice is the crumb takes on a 'glossy' look, which I've also seen in commercial extra sour sourdoughs.
Last week I tried a different multi-day ferment where I started with minimal starter, then doubled the mass over and over until I had a loaf's worth of dough. It was good, but not any better than my long ferment no-knead. Needless to say I'll stick with no-knead.
On another subject, I had a starter that over time started to go bad. It seemed OK (would bubble when fed), but would really break down the gluten structure in the bread. The crust would resist browning, and you could actually see strands of gluten. The crust would look like an ugly white ball of string. I mention this for some of the above posts where they can't seem to get a good loaf from their starter. There's a micro-survival of the fittest competition going on in your starter jar. The yeast and backteria are living a happy communal life. But every now and then some new bug may comes along and crash the party.

I tried the sourdough no knead with an 18 hour rise in the fridge. The dough seemed a little too dry but didn't add any water to it. Then I accidentally folded it before setting it out at room temp for rising (forgot) and then left it covered with a wet towel and plastic overnight, about 12 hours, it doubled in this time. Then I formed the loaf to put it into a cloth and flour lined colander, covered with plastic. I got busy with my work and forgot to check it. Not sure hot long it sat, probably 2 hours,when I got to it it was way over the basket and hadn't turned on the oven yet. I pulled out the dutch oven, but was afraid to heat it up as I knew I could never get this huge balloon into a hot pot so inverted the kettle over the basket and turned it back over. Put the lid on it and put it into the cold oven, set at 500. At 30 minutes I removed the lid and reduced heat to 450 for 15 minutes. My bread was pretty dark on the bottom having filled the pot pretty well. My crust was crisp but not thick and the crumb had large holes in it. Other than being almost burnt, it was beautiful. It had the best sourdough flavor of any bread I have ever baked and the lightest loaf ever. I used Carl's starter which I've had for over 8 years. It had been refreshed a couple of days before. I am really pleased with this long cold ferment. I'm not too crazy about all the bran around the loaf so I'll experiment with other rising basket buffers. Thank you for your thorough explanation of this method, it has helped me a lot. Very pleased with this sourdough experience after all these years, a loaf that wasn't a doorstop!

That's great! I think your experience illustrates how flexible and forgiving the no knead bread method really is.

hi eric a quick question….what is the "science"behind oven spring..and how can i get more? is it a cold pot in a hot oven..a hot pot in a hot oven ,,or a cold pot in a cold oven..