Sourdough No Knead Method

I have been using a starter I got from a friend that has been fed a diet of skim milk and AP-KAF in equal measures. I had been using a strain that I started using water but this smells so much better, plus it’s an old starter. Is there anything I should know about the care and feeding using skim milk?

Thanks,
Eric

I’ve been baking sourdough breads for a while, but recently joined the ranks of heart patients, so no salt and low to no fat allowed. I started using salt substitute, potassium chloride, in equal amounts rather than sodium. Anything I need to know in baking breads with salt substitutes?

For everyones information, It is my opinion that potassium chloride has a noticeable “flat” taste compared the the flavorful depth of salt. I hope to grow accustomed to the change in flavor soon, a small price to pay for my health.

I’m not sure on the science, but… I’m using a recipe that does not include yeast. Is the active bubbling things in my starter considered yeast? I know that salt is detrimental to yeast. I also know the reason that cooks use recipes and bakers use formulas is that baking formulas can not be altered without affecting critical actions in the dough. Fat content, binding agents, and catalysts etc are important to success.

My main curiousity is if I am missing anything about the potassium chloride as opposed to sodium.

We are in the middle of Mardi Gras down here in New Orleans, it is busy for me at work, so it will be after next week, Feb 20th, before I have time to experiment.

Thanks for the response.

Good Morning Eric,
Thank you for shipping my basket. I enclose a photo of my success with your starter and video. The bread is wonderful and we will continue to enjoy it, thanks to your wonderful instructions and starter. Taste and texture: fantastic!
Since I did not have my proofing basket yet, I used my Colander! I olive-oiled it well and sprinkled it with Oat Bran, that is all I had on hand. You can see how wonderful it worked!
The most tense moment was when I had to tip it out into the Cloche, I had no idea if it was going to come out. But it did! Thanks again, our life has been enriched with this lovely bread.
My next try will be to add a bit more wholemeal.
Kind regards from Christel

HI: Tried and failed. First rise was fine but no structure when it came out. Too wet. USed recipe and bread flour. Any ideas on what to change the next time? I have heard the NK concept is very hard with sourdough. Should I reduce water, reduce starter, ?

Here’s my method for putting no-knead dough into baking pan:
I add enough flour to my dough so it’s still sticky but can be shaped into a round loaf. Then I use 2 medium or long-handled spatulas (metal or heat-proof plastic) to lift the shaped dough and gently place it into the pot. No flipping the dough and no chance of burned hands. And the dough doesn’t deflate. I use either a 4 qt cast iron Dutch oven with cast iron lid or a pizza stone with a LaCloche top for baking.
Hope this helps.
Jeannie

Now that we’ve cut into it, how do you suggest it is stored to retain the crust texture? Would it do to just set it cut face down on a board?

Anyone care to know what happens when you let it rise the 2nd time for 8 hrs instead of 2……? Oops! Cooked ok, but WAY flattened because the structure was too airy (I’m assuming). Lesson learned. If there is a chance you will be gone longer than you thought, stick it in the fridge to slow down.!! Trying again later this week.

How about a video for making sourdough oblong loaf?

Do you use the same quantities of ingredients for oblong loaf?

hi eric..great site…my sour dough starter is just about ready for use..started it on july 6 and started feeding 2 times on monday the 9th..anyway the recipe i am referring to is youors….the original recipe(sullivan st) calls for 3cups of flour and 1/4 tsp yeast..yours calls for 2 and a half cups bread flour and 1 cup of whole wheat flour…except for starter ,everything else is the same as leahy/s bread…what does the extra 1/2 cup do?? and what happens if i just want to use 3 cups of bread flour???

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the link I’m going to try a spelt starter following your recipe, and use white spelt flour (which I bought in London) for the bread. I’ll let you know how it turns out. I live in Hong Kong which is very hot and humid so I’ll be watching the dough very carefully during rising as I understand spelt flour is very easy to overproof.

Hi Eric,

My problem baking bread seems to be the oven. When I use high temperatures, the bottom of the load burns like coal. Any tip on how to avoid this problem ?

Tks

Gustavo I have the same problem.

I have to bake at a bit lower temp and less time.

My latest bread was a bit more done than ideal.

I just experiment and adjust acordingly. I wonder if weather has any effect on the cooking temp. I am in south Texas.

Hi Eric,
I planned ahead to bake my first loaf of KN sourdough bread today. I used your starter recipie, by the way , the starter is very active! it was ready to jump out of the container and run away when I let it set after feeding it to use today!
I followed your recipie, and I found during the mixing process
it was very difficult to use my hands, too sticky to handle.
I managed to get it well mixed and into the proofing stage.
WOW it tripled in volume in about 14 hours, then seemed to run out of gas and by the 18th hour it actually fell some, (about an inch) is that normal?
I turned it out onto the floured surface ( a real sticky task) I floured my hands and the bread pretty well, hoping it would incorporate itself into the dough to help me handle it as well as reduce the wetness. I was able to do the folds and and quickly form it into a ball. Now comes my dilemma,
I have no proofing basket, La Cloche or dutch oven. So I placed the dough which I shaped into a log in a bread pan that was lightly oiled and coated with cornmeal for the final rise, I will just leave it in the pan to bake when it rises about an inch and a half over the top. I think I should bake it this way at a much lower temp like 375, for approx 30 min, perhaps tenting with aluminum foil for part of the time. What do you think?
I plan to buy the basket and La Cloche later, but for now I have to use what I have, and I just could not wait to try this!

Ok, It is now obvious that my final rise phase has miserably failed. After 4 and half hours the dough has not risen more than a 1/4 inch in the pan. I just don’t understand it.
The starter was extremely active when it was added to the dough mix, the first proof was incedible, the rest of the handling was just as the video demonstrated and I followed the steps exactly, the only exception being , instead of putting dough into proofing basket I put it in a bread pan?
What could have gone wrong? the room temp is Ideal, I used King Arthur bread flour and whole wheat flours as the recipe suggests. The starter has obviously spent it’s entire ability to produce gas in the first 18 hour rise period. I don’t understand why it just gave up?
any thoughts??
Any suggestions on how to revive my lifeless lump of dough into a riseable reincarnation that will be bakeable and hopefully edible?

Made you whole-wheat sourdough starter…it was on course until the last feeding which produced a very stiff starter. Is this correct? Is there a way to make it a little more pourable as in your videos?

I had some dried Carl’s 1847 starter, and tried to revive it. Took over 2 days, but it did come back, then it sort of stopped for awhile (even though I was feeding it), then it seemed to come back again. I transferred it to a jar that I cleaned with some bleach, which I am sure I washed out completely, but the starter again seemed to die. Then it came back again. Any thoughts?

Decided to try and make a loaf with it. Modified the recipe to 1 cup whole wheat and 4 King Arthur unbleached (actually going for two loves) ,and added some butter. Because of the way the starter was acting, I used a full cup of it.

I want to do them in glass pans because I like the more “square” shape for sandwiches, and I used less water because I seem to feel it is better to have a dryer/firmer dough to keep it in the pan when rising.

It has been rising about 12 hours now, and not quite double. I have read the other posts, and I am concerned that the dough may not rise well in the pans. I am working in about 80-83 degrees.

I had the thought of making up some regular bread yeast, and kneading it into the dough before the pan rise. What do you think about that?

Eric what kind of plastic bags are you using to cover your rising dough in your videos?

I am having trouble finding something like them.

Also I have a real science experiment going on in my kitchen. I have about 10 batches of starter going. I have noticed that sometimes when I take it out of the fridge it has a grayish tint on the top of a couple. I have been tossing those out. Is there something going wrong? They look ok when they go in the fridge.

Well Eric,

Guess what. About the time I finished the post below, I checked my 2-loaf rise again, and it had doubled, so I took it out of the bowl, cut in half, folded each a few times, and rolled up and put in glass loaf pans. I set them in a cool oven, and let them rise about 4 or 5 hours, and they poofed up quite well. Slashed them and baked at 375 for about 30 minutes.

They looked great, were pretty light (started at about 1-1/2 lb.) and tasted good. Only, didn’t taste like sourdough. I don’t know what the heck I have in my starter. Got the clan at Carl’s to send me a new starter.

By the way, I check my bread for doneness with a probe instant read thermometer, and I think about 175 is right, but would sure like a comment on that. I think this would be a much better way to check for doneness, especially for newbees. Nothing worse than burning or having a doughy center after all the time & work.

- Noel

Eric:

As previously mentioned, I have had great success with your starter and round LaCloche baker. I also ordered the oblong baker, and have three questions. To bake on the oblong, does it require either the same receipe, or more dough, or less dough? Does cooking time remain the same or what changes need to be made? Have you any videos using the french loaf baker?

Best Regards,
Mark

I’ll have to try making Sourdough NKB! Great video.

I’ve just finished my fourth try at your no kneed sourdough. Once again I’ve gotten a very dense, brick that’s about 1 1/2 ” high. Last time I tried doubling the recipe, thinking that my cloche was oversized or something. I just wound up with a larger brick. I’m weighing all ingredients carefully. Following directions. What I’m getting is inedible. Can’t figure out what’s going wrong.

the instant yeast version turned out fine.
I use an oblong la cloche. I don’t know if they make several sizes of them or not, could the cloche be too big?

I went nuts this weekend and made 3 different no-knead loaves. First was all white flour. I’ve read on other websites that longer ferments with LESS starter is the key to getting a more sour taste. I used about 1/8 cup of starter and put the dough in the fridge for 2 days. I then took it out and gave it 18 hours at room temp. The dough was extra soft, but it held its shape and baked up fine. The loaf came out great with extra large holes and that nice sourdough taste I was looking for. I also made a white/wheat, and one with steel cut oats. Both came out good. I gave the oat loaf a quick spritz of water before putting in in the la cloche, and it seemed to smooth out the crust. Thanks for launching this site. I hadn’t heard of no-knead before, but after just one loaf it’s my new favorite!

hi eric,,here’s an update on my sourdough efforts; i used Carls starter and the following recipe; 1 cup of starter,almost 2 teaspoons of salt,3 cups of KA bread flour,and 1cup plus 2 oz of water..let it go for 12 hours,then a 15 minute rest on a lightly floured board..then into my baking pot for the second rise..31/2 hours…baked covered for 1 hr…the result…fabulous fabulous,,nice spring and lovely holes….i am now addicted…..thanks to you

Well, it had to happen eventually…I have experienced bread failure [/head hanging in shame]. When I measured out the ingredients, I really thought the dough was too wet–literally poured into the bowl. I went and checked the video, thought I might be close, and went ahead. Good first rise, but still very wet; could barely shape it into any kind of boule. Ok 2nd rise, but not spectacular; about 4 “coils” below the top of the proofing bowl I purchased from you. When I went to invert the bowl over my cloche, the skin stuck to the bowl, even though I had sprayed it with Pam and used cornmeal and flour. Of course, the rest deflated on being so rudely dumped into the cloche. Since the cloche was preheated and everything, I put it in anyway, figuring I had nothing to lose. When I took the lid off, the whole thing was only about 2 inches high (I immediately went and started another batch for a try tomorrow). Once it was cool enough to handle, I pulled it open. The outside was burnt, the inside still slightly gummy, although in it’s defense, there was actually a good open crumb and a slight tang…..

I’m not sure if I mismeasured the water or misweighed the flour. My second attempt looks much stiffer; this time I just measured the flours with measuring cups. I was flipping back and forth online between the two NKB recipes, and I see that the yeast added one only uses 3C of flour, and the sourdough 3 1/2; maybe that’s where I got confused.

Oh, well, if at first you don’t succeed, try try again!
Mary Sue

Thank you so much for your encouragement, Eric! I was wondering…say, when I look at the dough tomorrow, I am sure it is too wet/too dry. Can I try and correct it before the second rise by adding flour or water? Is that going to screw anything up?

I haven’t tried the “no knead method” because I believe the kneading is important to gluten formation.

What I CAN say is that I have often add either water or flour to dough before setting up for the final rise. In both cases, I do so on a board, and, of course, knead the water/flour into the dough until it is absorbed.

I guess what I am trying to add here is that just because one is doing a “no knead” method, doesn’t mean one can’t do SOME kneading if necessary to change the consistency of the dough to get the hoped for final results.

After all, after all the work, time and waiting, why not try anything to get the dough to where you think it ought to be before the last rise. There is nothing sacred about “no knead”, so do so if you need to.

- Noel

I tried the sourdough no knead with an 18 hour rise in the fridge. The dough seemed a little too dry but didn’t add any water to it. Then I accidentally folded it before setting it out at room temp for rising (forgot) and then left it covered with a wet towel and plastic overnight, about 12 hours, it doubled in this time. Then I formed the loaf to put it into a cloth and flour lined colander, covered with plastic. I got busy with my work and forgot to check it. Not sure hot long it sat, probably 2 hours,when I got to it it was way over the basket and hadn’t turned on the oven yet. I pulled out the dutch oven, but was afraid to heat it up as I knew I could never get this huge balloon into a hot pot so inverted the kettle over the basket and turned it back over. Put the lid on it and put it into the cold oven, set at 500. At 30 minutes I removed the lid and reduced heat to 450 for 15 minutes. My bread was pretty dark on the bottom having filled the pot pretty well. My crust was crisp but not thick and the crumb had large holes in it. Other than being almost burnt, it was beautiful. It had the best sourdough flavor of any bread I have ever baked and the lightest loaf ever. I used Carl’s starter which I’ve had for over 8 years. It had been refreshed a couple of days before. I am really pleased with this long cold ferment. I’m not too crazy about all the bran around the loaf so I’ll experiment with other rising basket buffers. Thank you for your thorough explanation of this method, it has helped me a lot. Very pleased with this sourdough experience after all these years, a loaf that wasn’t a doorstop!

hi eric a quick question….what is the “science”behind oven spring..and how can i get more? is it a cold pot in a hot oven..a hot pot in a hot oven ,,or a cold pot in a cold oven..

Hello Eric,

I’ve so appreciated your terrific site. Though I baked WW bread for years, I had let it lapse over the past five or so. Health issues again bring me back to cooking from scratch. An “accidental” find during a web search brought me to no-knead bread – perfect for my rheumatoid arthritis impaired wrists.

I was delighted to bump into your site while perusing all the NKB information. My first attempts at NKB were less than stellar – mostly I found the bread lacking in flavor. That pushed me to try the sourdough version as I knew from years of baking desem bread that I much preferred the natural starter and long ferments for excellent flavor.

Following your technique on this site using the pineapple juice, I was happy to develop an excellent starter which I have baked with successfully this past week. My last challenge was the crust – I was unhappy with the thickness and toughness of it.

I have a la cloche baking pan from years ago which I had originally used in making desem bread. So today I tried something new with the NKSD bread recipe – I kept the lid on for the entire baking period (as I used to do with the desem). I baked the bread at 450 for 20 minutes then lowered the temperature to 350 for another 25 minutes. Just to be on the safe side, I used a thermometer to check the internal temperature which was 208 after 45 minutes. By my standards, the crust was perfect! Golden, chewy but no so tough I can’t cut it with my bread knife easily. Success!

Now I’m forging ahead to attempt a desem bread with a hybrid starter. Thanks for all the terrific info!

best,

Paula

Well I made the no knead method and it turned out great. The crust was very cruchy and the lofe was a little heavy but the bread inside was not dense. I have bought soughdough before and it did not seem this heavy. The crust on this bread was better than any I have bought before. My wife who enjoys San Fran sourdough bread thought this was just as good. Thanks for the starter tips.

I baked a bread today using the coiled basket for the final rise. The dough was pretty wet. I lightly sprayed the basket with canola oil and dusted with dark rye in place of whole wheat.

The bread did not come out of the basket without some shaking and the basket had a wet goo of flour remaining. It took a lot of work to clean it.

Question is: Dough too wet or too much flour in the basket? Any ideas will be appreciated.

Has anyone started a “starter” using beer and rye flour??
Sounds like a good combo !

I have been having great fun learning to make bread. I think I have found the a schedule that allows me to bake bread during the work week. Based on the original 18 hours rise schedule I would need to make the dough at midnight to be able to bake it the next evening. After reading some of the comments from other bakers, I have had success making the dough after work, refrigerate overnight, let it continue to raise at room temp all day and shape, raise and bake it the next evening. If my house is cool, I heat my oven to about 80 degrees, turn off the heat and let is rise in the oven during the day. I have found that just leaving the light on in the oven keeps it nice a warm.

I have also found that using a baking mat to flatten and fold the dough works well. This allows me to work with fairly wet dough and add minimal flour.

Let the dough rise on sprayed parchment paper put in a bowl.
then when ready pick the whole thing up by the corners of the paper and set it in the preheated D.O .

Cover and bake leaving the paper in place.
When done lift the bread out by again corners of the paper.

No the paper does not burn.

This is for Jeannie’s 1/26 comment:

I have had a similar problem. Local humidity has a big factor. I have had almost the same thing happen and I cut way back on water. I start with about 3/4 cup of water with the rest at hand in case I need it. I mix in the first part of the water and gradually add more as needed to get a dough with roughly the stiffness you see in Eric’s video.

The sourdough starter never double the size, but it was fed for 3 days before I bake with it, the firs day rise maybe 1/8 of the volume, the second day maybe 1/4, but smells pretty good.

Thanks for your time Eric,

hi eric..a quick suggestion on plastic covers for our first rise….i use the shower caps they supply in hotels.they are perfect…thanks again for your wonderful site

Hi Tom, I have been using a liquid measuring cup to measure my starter, but see you using a dry cup measure. I know about measuring shortening and butter in a dry cup, or the water displacement method but have always thought of sour dough as a liquid=water, rather then dry=flour. How much difference is there and which is correct? I just started weighting it since getting your machine and starter, to double it after feeding par your instruction sheet.

Hi Tom,
Your Whole Grain Sourdough done temp you said is 200 degrees, and your 100% Whole Wheat Bread is 190 Degrees. So what is this Sourdough No Knead Bread done temp suppose to be?

Hi Eric,

I have been baking the No Knead Sourdough Bread for about 8 months now using spelt flour but have never been able to get the big holes or a really light texture. Yesterday I found I didn’t have time to shape and proof the bread after the first rise so I stuck it in the fridge for a few (four)hours. I then shaped and proofed it for 2 hours and baked as usual. (The opposite of Rhine Meyering’s technique) It was the best bread I have ever made – light, airy with big holes and a definite sourdough flavour. I’m going to be doing this on a permanent basis now. Thank you and all your participants on this site for their advice.

I used my new cane proofing basket this weekend with a no-knead sourdough dough. Thought I had the bowl well floured, but man, did it really stick. Have gone back to using a oil sprayed mixing bowl. Are those cane proofing baskets usable for a no-keand dough, and if so, any suggestions?

thanks

nate

Eric, Made my first loaf of bread. Everything turned out great! I made the starter using the pineapple juice, one using whole wheat and another with white flour. This morning when preparing for the 2nd proofing, the feel and texture of the dough was fine, no problem stetching or folding over of the dough. I did use a floured cloth in the bowl for the final proof and when pouring the dough in the dutch oven, it did stick to the cloth but didn’t effect the results. I set the oven temp for 450 for the preheat and baking. I was so amazed to have such great results, the crust and crumb just perfect! Cant’t wait to try another!
With the white starter I made waffles using the recipe on your site and they were a big hit! I’m stuck on sourdough!

I just mixed up a batch of NK sourdough bread. For the salt, I used my Light Gray Celtic Sea Salt, which is rather coarse, and when I mixed the dough, I could visually see the little chunks of salt. I think this was a mistake. I plan to leave the dough in the refrigerator for 2 days before the 18 hours on the counter. How can I salvage this dough? Should I stir or knead it a little tomorrow, to try to get the salt granules to dissolve? Should I have dissolved the salt granules in the water first? Or just forget about coarse Sea Salt?

Eric, Thanks for getting back to me. I did work the dough a bit the next morning – kneading a few times in the bowl with wet hands, and I didn’t seem to feel any kernels of salt, so I’ve decided to proceed with the dough and see how it turns out. I don’t quite understand your reservation about the 2 day refrigerated fermentation, as I thought that’s what Rhine Meyering reported doing on his Oct. 7, 07 post, trying to achieve more sourness. He also states he left the dough out on the counter for 18 hours… well, it will be an experiment. I do love my La Cloche

I am thrilled to learn a new variation for the no knead bread. My mother introduced me to the NY Times one about 3 weeks ago. Neither of us have stopped baking it since! My husband said wished there was a sourdough loaf recipe…and what do you know….You made it possible! Thanks for the wonderful recipe….My neighbors thank you as well!

Thank you for the great tutorials on making sourdough starter and no knead sourdough bread. I have made 3 loaves of sourdough using the NK method and my own pineapple juice/whole wheat starter. The bread is WONDERFUL. My first two loaves were overcooked but tasted great anyway. I have now become a mad scientist in the kitchen–I have the original starter bubbling away as well as two others, a whole wheat/red wine and a pure rye flour/water mix. Should I feed the starters with the original flours to maintain their “purity”, that is, will feeding the whole wheat starter(for example) with unbleached white flour change the attributes of that starter?

The bread looked beautiful, but stuck badly to the bottom of the pan and was still wet in the middle…however the crust was wonderfully sour that I got off the bottom of the pan…I have put it all back in the oven to see if I can salvage it…I am using a KitchenAid professional series gas convection oven…Suggestions are welcome. THANKS, Mary

THANKS for the info….I’ve baked bread many times in this oven, and this is the first time I’ve had it happen…it is also the first time I’ve done the no-knead sour dough (the regular no-knead did not do this). I’ll keep trying and keep you posted…

wow oh wow!!! i just devoured half a small loaf of delicious bread made using your instructions but an old friendship bread recipe… i am so pleased wih the results that i’m quickly looking for my next recipe to try- do you have any advice on beer bread? i want to use my starter and was wondering if i could just substitute beer for some or all of the water in the no knead sourdough recipe? any help would be appreciated, and my husband thanks you as well; the beer bread was his idea!

Hi Eric,
After three days of pampering and following directions, my starter is just sitting and looking up at me. I guess I’ll have to try the dry starter.
Essie

h eric- things are well on the baking front but i got brave and decided to start my own starter from whole wheat since the starter i have been using is a potato starter and i felt like it was kinda sweet; the friend i got it from would feed it sugar or honey and potato flakes, and i wanted plain ol’ starter… so it looks good so far. i am feeding it every day; it’s been about a week and it is very active, smells yeasty and produces nice, frothy bubbles- i was wondering how long i need to wait before i can bake with it…i want more traditional sourdough instead of what have been baking, although it tastes wonderful…also how do you transfer the dough to the parchment without “popping” it?
thanks! coco

Hi Eric,

Things have been going so well with my spelt sourdough no-knead bread that I’ve decided to branch out with other grains. My next experiment will be with kamut which is apparently an ancient Egyptian wheat. If any of your readers have ever tried making bread or doing any other type of baking with kamut, I’d appreciate some feedback on what to expect. I will keep you posted.

Why not bake your starter?

It occurred to me today as I was feeding my (room temp) starter — why not simply bake the starter?

Here’s the scenario: you keep 4 oz of starter in the refrigerator. On the morning before baking day you pull the starter, allow to warm to room temp, pull a 2 oz sample, feed the “mother” (i.e. double) and re-refrigerate.

Now, take your 2 oz sample and double it (yielding 4 oz). Double it again (yielding 8 oz). Double it again (yielding 16 oz). These doublings could be 2X/day or 1X/day (your choice, with or without refrigeration). As a final feeding you could add 4 oz flour/water (yielding 16.5 oz) and let rise (while the oven preheats) and then bake your “starter” (after foldiing/manipulating as you desire).

How is a “fed starter” any different from “risen dough?” Not at all, is what I think … and the additional time for development adds to its “character” (i.e. flavor).

I’d appreciate your comments.

Tom.

I’ve decided to quit experimenting (baking starter, cold-oven baking, etc.) and just return to what’s been working for millenia: flour, water, sourdough starter, and salt. I made a loaf today using your reconstituted dried starter (about 2-1/2 weeks old). It’s just your basic NKSB recipe, and it came out very nicely (pics under separate cover).

I’ve also made a loaf or two with my pineapple juice starter that also turned out very well. So now I’ve got two starters: yours and mine. I’ll have to do a “bake off” to see if there’s any real difference between Ohio and Illinois fungi/bacteria.

My baking vessel at the moment is a 6.5 qt Chantal enameld steel Dutch oven, but I’m eyeing a 5 qt cast iron D.O. for more thermal inertia.

Here’s my first loaf made with your dried and reconstituted starter. It’s your basic no-knead sourdough, with a minor modification: to get the baking time at a more convenient hour, I refrigerated the rising dough overnight and finished it up this morning. I did the bench proofing on parchment paper in a 12” skillet (mostly to contain the ooze), and dropped paper and all into my rocket-hot Dutch oven. When I pulled it out it measured 206F (on your instant-read thermometer).

I ate both slices seen here and they were mighty nice: crispy, crunchy crust, moist and chewy crumb, with a subtle sour tang (quite mild, actually). Your starter’s got “legs.”

A quick follow-up to my previous post: there are a number of Hertzberg/Francois “guest appearance” videos on YouTube. This is probably the best (at least it’s the longest):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_L8zsDurc_I

Their complete recipe is here:

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=195

And a modified recipe using considerably less yeast is here:

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=85

Where you would simply substitute 1/2 cup of starter for the 1/2 teaspoon of yeast, following Eric’s recommended substitution, but I’m sure practically any amount would do the job.

somewhere on this wonderful site that you have here, I saw a couple of recipes for sourdough bread using white vinegar and beer. Fist, I cannot find where I saw those recipes. And second. Is there something I can use instead of beer? Can I increase the white vinegar amount or should I use something else? Sandy in Fl

Sandy,

The Cook’s Illustrated website says that non-alcoholic beer will work fine in their recipe. If you want the best, go with St. Pauli Girl NA. If you want the cheapest, try Miller’s “Sharps” NA. Either will deliver an excellent bread. My brother bakes with Guinness (specifically called out as inadvisable by CI — an ale, not a lager), and his bread turns out just fine.

But, be advised that nearly all of the alcohol in any beer will bake out at the temperatures involved in baking. Even regular yeasted breads will contain some alcohol since it’s one of the products of fermentation (sugar + yeast = CO2 + alcohol + others).

But follow your own drummer, and enjoy the result!

Tom.

Thank you for the wonderful recipe. I tried it over the 4th of July weekend and it turned out great.

I mentioned your web site and posted a few pictures at http://lavidamd.livejournal.com/56767.html

The Pizza stone is a good base, you will also need something to cover the bread during the first part of the bake. A nice heavy oven safe pot would be best, a large (oven safe, of course) mixing bowl should also do the trick. Preheat it right along with the oven and stone. From there, just follow the recipe, pretending your stone/pot combo are a Cloche or Dutch oven and you should be fine. I haven’t tried this, but I’ve heard reports that it works and it makes sense to me.

Eric, In the old days when I made regular bread I was done in 6 hours, start to finish. So I’m still a little confused (and this may be a no-brainer to the more experienced bakers in this group), but what is the purpose of all these 18-hour or longer delays? Is it just to develop better sourdough flavor, bigger holes, or thicker crust, or is it what actually makes the breads “no-knead”?
Thanks. Marilyn B.

What do I do if I cannot continue on with the process after the 18 hour rising process, since this would be too late into the night? This is just about my first time for making bread by this method and my timing is off a little. I don’t want to waste the dough, but I don’t know what to do with it if I can’t cook it right away.
Thanks for your help.

This question is for Bruce. I have one of those cast iron skillets, but the pouring lips would let steam out if you don’t have a lid that fits over them. What did you use for a lid?
Thanks. Marilyn B.

I have been tinkering with sourdough no-knead all summer with varying results – while the flavor and crust were usually delicious I made many many very flat loaves. But FINALLY I found a solution that works for me- I followed your recipe exactly, with the exception that I placed a smaller (maybe 3qt?) dutch oven inside my 5 1/2 qt dutch oven and lined the smaller one with reynold’s non-stick foil, and only put the lid on the bigger dutch oven. The loaf rises beautifully, it has a great open crumb, it is easy to remove, and it looks awesome! I was on the verge of giving up with this recipe until I figured this out – and I didn’t want to because I know the dutch oven method creates the best crust I will ever achieve in a home oven. I know it sound ridiculous to put one dutch oven inside the other, but the loaf rises too high to bake inside just the smaller one.
Thank you for the recipe – this site is a wonderful resource!

A while ago, (post 193) I complained here that, just about the time my sourdough starter got really sour, it started making the dough go slack during the rise, so that I wind up with a flat loaf and denser crumb but wonderful taste. I’ve been experimenting since with different flour mixes, stiffer dough, refrigeration, etc., and eventually the problem disappeared – but so did the sourdough taste. The reason seems to be that while I was doing all this, I was also feeding the starter with white flour so I would have the option of making an all-white loaf. Apparently this cut down on the acid, so I went back to feeding it with rye flour. Now the taste is back, but so is the slack dough.

You suggested at the time that the acid was attacking the gluten, and I think you’re right, but I don’t know what to do about it. Maybe a teaspoon of baking soda? But if you neutralize the acid, you’ll probably lose the taste, and I have no idea what else would happen with baking soda in there. Might be worth a try. I’ll let you know.

Tom (233) -

I think it’s just for convenience. On the first rise, the dough is sticky and will grab the towel if you let it. Our grandmothers just used a deep bowl. On the second rise/rest – well, you’ve already got this perfectly good piece of plastic right there. On the third (mine, anyway) the dough is covered with bran or meal or flour or something so the towel doesn’t stick. Just my $.02.

Pam (232)

Do you do the final rise in the smaller Dutch oven, or do you preheat them both? I ask because my slack dough spreads out so much I can barely get it in the bigger oven. If you don’t preheat, you might have a sticking problem, or is that what the foil is for? This sounds like it might be a solution for me, too, and I’d love to hear more about it. Thanks.

Hi… The weather has turned hot again, great for growing my sourdough, not great for a hot oven. So freezing unbaked bread is on my mind. I really need help. I’m totally confused about at what stage I should freeze the dough, and then how proceed when I take it out of the freezer. Do I freeze it before the first rise? After?

I have some dough that’s been sitting for almost 18 hours. Can I make it into loaves now and freeze before proofing?

How long does it have to thaw/sit/rise once it’s taken out of the freezer?

Thanks!
Carolyn

The third loaf I made with my rye sourdough starter came out pretty good. I used 1/2 cup of starter to get more rise out of it, tweaked the water to get the consistency I wanted and used parchment paper in a glass bowl for the second rise. I plopped the dough, parchment paper and all, into my cast iron Dutch oven after 1 1/2 hours, after poking it with my finger and getting a slight rebound. I got a good oven spring and a nice shape. It didn’t have large holes, but it did have good texture. I took it to a potluck where it was devoured.

Can I reuse the same parchment paper?

I want to bring a couple of loaves to a weekend event. Should I bake them and freeze them or is there a better way to do it?

Eric,
Recently discovered Bread Topia and the “No Knead Sourdough Bread” video and recipe. I used 5 oz of WWF and 11 oz of unbleached all purpose flour, plus the sour dough started, and salt. 1 and 1/2 cups of water left me with lots of dry flour in my mixing bowl. I had to use lots more water to get what I think you got on the video. The flour was by weight and the water by volume. What gives? I have the dough in the Frig for 24 hours and will let it sit on the counter at room temp 18 hours before I bake in a cast iron Dutch Oven. Will let you know how this comes out and send some pic’s.

Thanks

I’ve tried this method 5 times now and each time end up with bread that is VERY dense, and flat (the loaf is about 1 1/2 inches high), the crust is so thick that it is hard to cut.

It rose quickly the first time and was higher at 12 hours than it was at 18 hours – seemed to drop some. It didn’t rise at all the second time in the proofing basket, seemed to not have any oomph left.

WHAT on earth am I doing wrong. I’m following everything exactly as the video shows.

I have made 5 bricks now -

Janet,

My results are about the same as yours. I think there is too much water in the dough, thus needing 60+ minutes of bake time which is causing the brick crust. My next batch will be with less water, 12 to 18 hours of rise time and bake in the Dutch Oven, with lid until I get the bread temp to 205 to 207 degrees. I will not take the lid off as in the video and see what happens.

Finally SUCCESS!! I made another loaf and let it rist only 12 hours. It responded well to the 15 min. rest and the rise in the basket was completed in two hours.

The bread was soft and fluffy with nice holes and and good crust.

I put a pan of water in the oven while it was baking…I’d heard that a long time ago – not sure why it was suggested but I thought it might help with the crust. Does anyone know why this is done?

The crust was much thinner and very, very good, was it because of the water?

Thanks everyone

Well, I took the plunge and baked my first round of sourdough using Eric’s starter and Eric’s recipe for the bread. Other than the dough not rising as much as his did after 18 hours (I hear it’s difficult to do that here in Seattle), everything worked out like the video. I don’t have a proofing basket, so I used a towel and put it in a bowl to give it the right shape for the final proof.

To bake I put the dough on a pizza round and covered it with a crock pot liner. After 45 minutes the loaf was only about 2 1/2 inches high and darker than I’d like. I think I’ll cook it cooler than 500 next time to see if I can get it golden brown not burnt brown.

The loaf was a bit dense as a result of the thickness, but there were good holes and the bread tasted great! Definitely a keeper. All my family thinks so. It was a mild sourdough taste but my starter is only a few weeks old. I’m sure it will get stronger with age. I chroniciled my experience on my blog if you’re interested in the goary details.

I’ve got another blob of dough rising overnight as I type because we ran out of bread. I look forward to experimenting with the process to get the best loaf possible. Like this time I removed the starter from the fridge yesterday and fed it. Today it was really active when I used it. I hope that helps the rising process. It’s fun to experiment.

My mother says the bread will be really good with soup in the fall. I made her a white starter out of my wheat per Eric’s instructions. She had a different starter for a decade til she got tired of it. She was excited to start it again with Eric’s.

Thank you!

I have been complaining (251 and previous) about sourdough starter making the dough go slack, and am glad to announce that (extrapolating from Eric’s excellent suggestion) the shorter rise time fixes the problem. Apparently the acid needs time to develop, but can’t be given enough time to attack the gluten. I used 12 hours last time, and may be able to go shorter. Here’s what I do (YMMV):

Sometime after lunch, take the starter out of the frig , feed it and leave it out;

About 6 hours later, it should be climbing out of the jar. Make up the dough with a generous 1/4 cup of starter, feed the starter again, and put it back in the frig;

12 hours later (maybe less) proceed as usual, except I have found that 10 minutes with the top off is plenty for the crust (takes 20 for me with the commercial yeast).

Marge (253)

Congratulations! Sadly, your question about excessive sourness will probably not find an answer here. You may, however, be deluged with questions about how you got that level of sourness to start with.

Enjoy.

hi! ok, so I am all set, got your starter going and wow, it is growing like a beast! So much better than my failed attempt at making my own starter. I have a couple of questions though…

1. I typically only use sea salt in cooking and do have some kosher salt – I never ever use table salt with the iodine or whatever in it. My question is, while I used the kosher this time I would prefer to use sea salt – I know you have to adjust for that in recipes but I am not sure how much more sea salt I should use – unless you are using sea salt…

2. I have a Le Creuset cast iron french/dutch oven that I am going to use for now while I try to figure out if I am gonna get hooked on this. Do I need to do anything special to the surface to prepare it? Like oil up the inside?

3. Speaking of Le Creuset … I have a small terrine used to make pate…. would that be a suitable container to try to make a rectangular loaf? How much dough would I put in there?

4. Rolls… um, I would love to make rolls… how can I do this? Just like a cookie sheet and make little balls of dough? I can also use like traditional loaf pans, right?

I am SUCH a noob at baking and while I am really trying to get better I have tried breads a few times with such epic failure that I have not tried to make it again for like 10 years. So sorry if these sound like dumb questions….

Mireille -

Just FYI, I make my bread in an old Le Creuset Dutch oven with no oil and no liner and the bread just falls right out when it’s done. I wondered about that, too, when I started, but have never had a loaf stick even a little bit.

My lid has the black plastic(?) handle which Le Creuset says is good to 400*. In deference to them, I do not preheat the lid, but it’s in there at 450* for 30 minutes and I’ve never had a problem.

In regard to the salt, some say (in regard to brining meat, for example) that you should double up on the kosher salt, but I’m pretty sure that’s because it’s flaky and weighs less by volume. Sea salt should be good at one to one. But Eric’s advice rules – just play with it until you get it right. Have fun.

oh! I should add that it was Kosher Salt so maybe that is why it did not ruin the bread… we thought it came out better than the first batch.

I found your no knead bread video on utube and found it fascinating. That led me to watch the NYT article and others. For my first attempt the dough came out very wet and I was unable to do the fold. I was not real careful with my measurements and just tried to get the consistency right (looking like the video). I let it sit there (rise) for a couple of hours and plopped it into a hot baking (Pyrex) bowl. The loaf did not rise real well, but tasted fantastic. The texture and crust was better than anything I had ever baked. I was real excited to try the sour dough recipe. I was very careful with the recipe and the dough came out great. It proofed for 19 hours, I kneaded it 10 times and let it rise for 2 hours. It looked fantastic in the baking dish and I was excited to cut into it. The taste was nonexistent. I’m really baffled by this. There was no sourdough flavor and although the texture was OK, the bread did not create the “gotta have another piece of that” buzz that the first loaf did. I am going to try this recipe again, but without the small amount of kneading.

Just recently found your site after hearing about no-knead from my father-in-law. A lot of great information, Thanks. I’ve already got a La Cloche oblong on my Christmas list!

Hi,
I ordered your live sourdough starter (from the Baking Supplies section), it’s great. I’ve been using a 40 year old starter from my local baker for the last 6 months or so. It was great bread, but not at all sour.

The first loaf I made with your starter is just what I was looking for, the characteristic sour flavor (and serious aroma during baking).

thank you!

Hi, I’ve always heard that you are suposed to return a portion of the dough back to the starter. Is this so? If yes, when should I return?
Thanks, Ginny

Broke down, went to the store, and got some yeast. Mixed up some more dough, and it’s rising beautifully, after only 3 hours. Think maybe I shouldn’t let it go the whole 18 hours? It’s probably about 79 degrees in here, but getting cooler (rained today, yay!)

I know I probably won’t get any replies until after I’m done, but I just wanted to share my success (so far) with someone, I guess. I’ll report back when it’s over!

Hey BD,

I can’t claim to have faced exactly what you’ve got happening there, but I’d say you should either bake it early (couldn’t tell you just when, but when you think it’s ready) or refrigerate the dough to slow the rise. I would think you’ll get better results from either of those than you would if the dough over-rises.

Good luck!

Russ

bread doofis……

nothing succeeds like success, pay close attention and you will succeed. firstly, don’t throw away your starter, keep it fed and refrigerated, but for the time being don’t use it. watch the bittman interview with mr. leahy. watch it many times paying close attention to the consistancy of the dough, forget about differnt types of yeast, forget about your water, forget about your flour. yes, some yeast, some flours, some waters are indeed better, but that’s not your problem. start with the yeast based recipe, pay strict attention to your dough, it should be quite sticky, but almost almost kneadable . the term is hydration, or “wetness” of the dough, many people, myself included, have(had) problems switching over to the no knead method. from your description, it sounds like your dough was much too wet, not because you measured/weighed wrong, it just happens. just understand, once the dough is mixed and risen, and is too wet, it too late to add enough flour to correct the problem. it’s during the actual mix, that you must see to proper consistancy of the dough.
once you succeed with yeast based recipe, a few times, then graduate to the sourdough recipe. i only mention the bittman video beacause i think it’s more basic, the material here on this site is awesome, and can take your bread baking efforts a long, long way further, but start with the simple bittman video, watching the dough consistancy especially during the folding “part”, i’ll bet your dough was much much too wet. peace………

Thank you for the advice, baddboyi! I’m still waiting to get some instant yeast before I try it again, and I’m still feeding my starter. It has bubbles in it when I take it out of the refrigerator and has a slight sour smell, and bubbles a little after being fed, but no “froth”. I don’t think I’ve ever had any real “froth”. Well, at least it hasn’t turned to fingernail polish remover like my last batch did. I was so disappointed! When I researched it, I found some people saying you could redeem it, and others said it would straighten up for a while but always end up reverting back to the acetone. I found the latter to be true, so I heaved it and started over.

Bread Doofus,

Don’t give up, and don’t worry about finding instant yeast. I’ve been making great no-knead for over a year, now, and I always use Red Star Active Dry yeast. That’s what I had on hand when I first tried the recipe, and it has always worked fine. In fact, my original batch was the remnants of a 1-kilo package from Costco, and it had been in the fridge at least 2 years, probably longer. The Rapid-rise stuff may be a problem, but active dry yeast works like a charm. I originally was very careful about temperature, and mixed the yeast with the water before adding it to the flour and salt, but now I just toss it in with the dry ingredients, and it works fine.

As for the time of rising, I have let mine go more than 24 hours for the first rise, at 72-75 degrees, then 3 or 4 hours for the final rise, and it worked fine. I’ve also cut the first rise to 12 hours with no problem, although we thought the resulting loaf didn’t have quite as much flavor.

I think baddboyi had the right idea: you need to get the wetness of the dough right. It should be a little too wet and sticky to knead, but no wetter than that. Once you have a success, and you will succeed, you’ll know what the dough should look and feel like.

As for the sourdough version, I’m just a tiny bit ahead of you: I finally got my starter far enough along to make a successful loaf. I had several failed loaves before that, and even had to discard my starter and begin again, when I forgot I had put it in the oven to work overnight, and turned the oven on to preheat it for a roast. I was the bread doofus that night.

But I have faith–we WILL make great sourdough bread.

Dave

It must be beginner’s luck, but my first loaf of no knead sourdough bread came out heavenly. Thanks so much Eric for your wonderful videos and recipes, and the speedy shipping on my supplies!

I used sourdough starter and flour from King Arthur, weighed everything and used Eric’s recipe for ingredients to the letter. After reading all the comments from Southerners (I live in hot and humid Louisiana), I did not proof the full 18 hours- I stopped at 15 hours when I noticed a bubble pop and the dough looked like it was beginning to deflate. (Yes… I was staring at the dough all morning.) Next time I may try proceeding at 12 hours, because there was no difference in the dough between hours 12 and 15.

I used the oblong La Cloche purchased from Eric, but I lowered the oven temperature to 450, and gave it 10 minutes with the top off rather than 15, because it was looking nice and brown. (Forgot to lower the oven temp, so that last 10 minutes was at 450 also.)

I managed to wait a full 20 minutes before I had to eat a piece. (Most of that time was spent taking pictures and calling people, hey I made a loaf of bread, lol.) What a nice loaf to cut!! The crust was lovely and crunchy, the crumb was moist and chewy with nice holes. The bread was delightfully sour, at least as sour as bread I have had in San Francisco, and much more so than local bakery sourdough.

I am cooking dinner for a friend tomorrow and want to serve the bread then- I hope the quality lasts 26 hours. If a paper bag works to maintain the crust, what about storing it in the La Cloche with the lid tilted a bit for ventilation?

Thanks for listening to my bread rave, lol.

Lee Ann

Lee Ann: LOL….I can tell from that last question that you’re from that other country….south Louisiana! I”m in Central Louisiana.

I’ll be going to Wal-Mart in the next few days to get some more unbleached flour and hopefully some instant yeast, so I can try to make some o’ dat (to put it in your language, lol) NKB bread, even if my silly sourdough starter (which seems to have the “studs”) won’t work.

I just purchased the La Cloche rectangular clay baker and hoped to get a thinner and shinier crust, like what is sold out here in the San Franciisco area. Unfortunatley, I got the same thicker crust as before using the clay baker. One difference is I used 100% bread flour this time vs. your mixture. I also use towels vs the proofing basket. I do like the thicker, duller crust, though I am the only one in the family who does.

Any Suggestions?

Bread Doofus,

I finally, from your post, figured out the problem with your starter. You are using Louisania swamp water for your liquid! It all that gater and turtle and snake stuff in it that is killing the good critters!

Bob

Hey now wait a minute BD, you mean you *don’t* live in a swamp and have a pet gator??? I do!! Juuuust kidding, hehe.

BTW, I made some of that Parmesan Olive and Cranberry Pecan Sourdough No Knead, those two recipes rock!

Kind regards,

Lee Ann

Well, it finally rose to 2-1/2 cups before I went to bed around 10. Threw a 1/2 cup of flour in it and put it in the fridge. I just don’t understand why I can’t get a decent rise. On the positive side, it did have the nice foamy bubbles on top, which I’ve never had before.

Well, at least I know it’s still alive and working. It’ll get there eventually, I guess. Hopefully you all won’t get sick of listening to me whine before it does.

Fustest, if you had 2.5 cups of starter and fed 1/2 cup of flour, you are still not feeding enough – remember the formula.

I agree with Dave on leaving the starter out of the fridge. Example: I pulled 3 of my starters out of the fridge about 5pm last night. Fed them about 7 pm. Fed them again this morning at 7 AM. Will feed them about 6 when I get home and about 7 start my actual doughs. And these are very active starters. If they were “newbies”, I would have fed them probably at least 3 days before trying to use them.

If push comes to shove, use a cup of your starter and try a bread. That way you can find out for sure if it is strong enough to make bread.

But ensure you keep enough starter back to build again.

Hi Eric, I am new to this no knead stuff and was having a proofing problem due to my chilly kitchen. I wound up buying a reptile thermostat and using it to control the temp in a box with a heating pad. Perfect rise! Just wanted to pass on a lifesafer (actually a breadsaver!) Diane

OK, 2nd attempt, Hit the wrong key and wiped out my entire response….. Fred, I went to the Big Apple Supply online and bought a reptile temperature thermostat control unit, cost about $40.00. (www.bigappleherp.com) It has a temperature probe, an electric plug for a thermastat or a heating pad and a plug. It’s adjustable from 65-110 degrees. I just set it and forget it. It does take a while to warm up my box so I put in a 4 cup pyrex with very hot water to speed up warming to 80 degrees. Diane

Someone on another site recommended using a terracotta flower pot as a cloche. I was at a garden store this week, and decided to give it a try. I bought an 8-inch pot and an 11-inch tray, then stopped by the hardware store to pick up an eyebolt and nuts and washers to use as a handle.

I made a double recipe of sourdough no-knead, using all bread flour. It fermented for 14 hours, then I folded and divided the dough. After a rest, I formed two boules, let them rise for two hours, and baked at 450, side-by-side, for 30 minutes, one in my new “cloche”, and the other in my cast iron Dutch oven. I then took the loaf out of the Dutch oven, and put it directly on the oven rack, and took the top off the cloche. I let them brown for 8 minutes, then removed both.

The one in the flower pot rose higher, I think because it didn’t quite fit, and the sides of the pot forced it more vertical.

I’ve emailed Eric a photo of both loaves.

Marge,

You are right about that, I should have mentioned that, although it is my understanding that any lead found in clay pots is in the glaze. These are unglazed. Mine were seasoned with oil, just as one does with cast iron, and I bake on foil or parchment.

Dave, that is such a cool idea! I am a gardener as well as a baker, so this flowerpot cloche just really tickles me, hehe.

I meant to say that the off-taste wasn’t too strong. The smell in the house was.

Regarding Lead in Terracotta Clay Pieces
Someone mentioned a few months ago that she’d purchased unglazed terracotta pieces that were made in California. She called the manufacturer to find out they use lead in them even though they are unglazed. She tested them and found signs of lead. So I decided to test mine, too. Mine were purchased locally, at a big box store, but are stamped with “Made In Italy”. I purchased a home test kit at a hardware store (Harbor Freight) and tested my trays and pots. They tested absolutely negative. So… if you’re concerned, it’s an easy and inexpensive test.

Also, I haven’t ever used any oil, just corn meal, wheat bran, or parchment paper depending on what I cooking, and my daily whims.

Happy Baking

I do, yes. I add about 20 minutes to the baking time. Using the cold start seems to give a lot more oven spring (”rise” to novices) and I think lessens the chance for the pot to break.

I know you drop your dough into a preheated oven, but I think the pre-heat drives the moisture out of the clay.

That said, I DO pre-heat my cast iron Dutch Ovens since no moisture is involved.

By the way, I also transport my doughs to the containers on parchment paper and GENTLY place them into the pot, so as to not deflate them.

Let me throw another variable in the mix.

I just bought one of those big electric roasters. Some people with I correspond bake bread in theirs.

So this weekend, I heated both it and my oven to 350F. Put two loaves in the roaster and one identical loave in the oven. Baked for same length of time.

One in oven did not rise as much, but the crust browned as usual.
The two in the roaster rose quite nicely, but did not brown.

All 3 loaves were baked to internal temperature of 197F.

I put the two roaster loaves in the oven on the top rack to get a little browning.

Next time, I may try baking them a bit longer or just put them under the broiler on my toaster oven (out of the pan).

Bob – the mad scientist.

I really don’t think the choice of vessels is THAT important. I think the important things to consider are: A. is it oven proof; B: will it retain moisture.

For example, I use the cast iron Dutch oven, the Romertopf and a 1.5 quart casserole dish for small loaves. All of them seem to work equally well.

I also have a zillion loaf pans of various sizes that I use to bake yeasted anad sourdough in.

I did bake a Basque Sheepherder’s loaf in the dutch oven that weighed 6 pounds and 11.4 ounces. Now THAT was an impressive loaf.

Still experimenting.

Mine is also a 111, but I beat you on the price since I only paid a buck. But I have taken the old boy a couple of loaves of bread!

Mine had been used for meat, apparently, so I smoked it, ala The Novice, and then used a scouring pad and warm water to get rid of most of the “junk” on it. Haven’t had any smoke problems since.

I use different recipes in it, but stick mainly to one that uses 6 cups of flour. It spreads a bit, but I am satisfied with the results.

I don’t want to hog Eric’s site. If you will email me at oldcampcook at yahoo.com, i will send you my Basic recipe that I use for most of my breads.

Hi Bob. I just left a message there at DC visitors site.

I went to oldcampcook which is thru Discuss Cooking forum.

Hi, i just made a loaf of the No Knead Sourdough Bread in a cast iron kettle. It came out great. I am waiting for it to cool. I have a Chambers Stove so I was concerned that it might burn because my stove hold heat wiith the gas off. So I preheated my oven for less time and i am so impressed with the look oif my bread. It is crunchy, golden and beautiful. I am going to try cooking some loaves in a clay cooker. Thank you so much for this site. You are a good baker and so nice that you offer videos for others. Thanks again!!!

Patti,

Try adding some nuts (I use pecans) to what you are doing with the spices and honey.

I pat my dough out, sprinkle with cinnamon, raisins (sultanas, in your case) and pecans. Roll up the dough like a cinnamon roll and seal the seam and bake. One of my most requested bread – I use a dried potato flake based starter which has quite a bit of sugar in it.

Bob

If Eric permits, I can post the potato flake starter recipe on here. If not, if you will email me at oldcampcook(at)yahoo.com, I will be happy to share it with you. And with anyone else that would like it – I stole it about 2 years ago from the internet and have used it every weekend since. And the starter has been shared with a zillion (not quite) people.

k, bob, i added some flaked almonds and it’s great! thank you for the suggestion.
next project….mixed seed bread.

carolyn, mixed spice is just that….a mix that we buy in NZ and australia….it is simply called mixed spice!
it’s a british thing and sometimes called pudding spice.
my best guess is that it is made of: allspice/nutmeg/cloves/cinnamon/ginger
of course you can make your own and use various other sweet spices.
we are never without it….it goes in all fruit cakes and chutneys and relishes, along with other spices of course.
in a pinch though, it is fine on it’s own….so handy!

i mixed two sourdough starts together and killed the entire thing.
depressing. they just couldn’t get along harmoniously.
but i’ve started a new one quite confidently with just wholemeal flour and water.
reading about the health benefits of sourdough bread has me determined to stick with it.

I’m having some problems. I weigh my flour carefully, and measure the water correctly. My starter is rather stiff. When I first mix it, its quite a stiff loaf.

My problem is when I go to fold the dough its wet and soft. No where near manageable, which I don’t understand because its much drier then yours appears at the begining

Any suggestions?

Eric, I have been reading about some bakers who do the stretch and fold 3 times before the overnight long rise – does that make any difference really? I rather love the simplicity of just the one stretch and fold at the end with the NK method…

Thanks!

Lee Ann

Thanks Eric! I also think the simpler the better! : )

Hey, here is something really yummy that adds crunchy seeds to your bread, add 1/2 cup to 2/3 of this King Arthur Harvest Grains mix to your standard NK sourdough recipe – http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=3602.

I cut back on the flour a little but that may not be necessary. I also used the KA artisan flour but am trying it again tonight with bread flour and WW flour and a pinch of ascorbic acid because I am out of the artisan flour.

That was a great loaf! Chewy and seedy and yummy.

Have a great Thanksgiving Breadtopians! : )

Lee Ann

Well, an update on proofing my bread…. I found I can hang the thermastat on the handle of my oven, hang the thermostat that detects the temp over the heater coil, and I place the heating pad on the bottom rack. Since the unit hangs on the outside of the oven, I don’t have to worry about turning on my oven an cooking the darn thing! Also, I don’t have to use the box anymore. I came up with this because my oven light overheats my oven and I can’t prop the door without it being too cold. I use the oblong LaCloche with parchment paper at 450 degrees for 40 minutes and 5 minutes with the lid off. If I use the original temps, my bread is a burnt brick…. not very tasty. And yes, I raise the bread in the basket on the parchment and lift it into the basket. Now that I have the right sequence down, we have super great bread! Once again, thank you for having this site and comment board to help all of us bakers. Sincerely, Diane G.

Hi, I’ve made the first no-knead recipe about 5 times, always with success, but the dough is TOO sticky and loose to actually handle for shaping. I know that more flour or less water might do the trick, but has anyone else encountered that problem. I have one in the last phase of rising right now, and HOPE that it will bake up OK since I couldn’t place in the towel and had to dump it from the board. (I actually use B Parvin’s idea of an aluminum foil form). Any comments would be helpful.
Also, what kind of starter do you use for the sourdough bread. It sounds yummy!

Hi all,

I just baked my first two loaves of sourdough today. They taste great and have nice sized holes. One problem….they spread out quite a bit in the Cloche and are rather flat. Do you think they were too wet or not kneaded enough? The dough rose a lot during the first and second rise, so I am not sure what else to do.

Eric,
Thank you for the quick feedback! I’ll try to stiffen it up next time. Btw, I ordered and received the cloche and whisk last week and I *love* them!

Kyle

I make all my no knead breads in a cold oven with great success. I started making these no knead breads with the “No knead harvest bread” from the King Arthur’s sight, which calls for a cold oven, and have been doing it with all the breads I make.

Yes Sandy, the recipe is still on the King Arthur no knead bread site.
I bake it in my covered pampered chef stoneware. After the 8 hrs., or however long it takes to rise. I put it in my stoneware, cover and let it rise for 2 more hours and bake at 450 for 45 min., take the cover off and bake another 5 min.

The Pampered Chef Baker is fantastic for these no knead breads. I’ve heard too many complaints about burn’t bottoms. This never happens with the PC stoneware. (No, I don’t sell Pampered Chef). I also use the stoneware loaf pan, and cover with another stoneware loaf pan, when I want a regular loaf. I usually use this pan for the no-knead harvest bread, which I make more often. We toast it for breakfast.

Thank you Eric and Dave. I will do both. Yes, I do have a flowerpot with bigger drip plate. I started with that at the beginning. I will try it again. The interior of the bread is wonderful.

Thank you for providing such a wonderful website. I am searching for info about taking some of the risen dough (made with instant yeast) and putting it in the fridge in a jar and continuing to use this as a starter. I think I read that it’ll become a local sourdough culture with time. Unfortunately, I’ve been unable to locate this info on your site, although, I think I’ve read something about it here before. I’d certainly appreciate any guidance or advice about this.

Some questions that come to mind are:
How much do I need to save and at which stage (after initial 12-18hrs rise or after the subsequent 1-2hr rise) should I reserve some dough?
Should I proceed immediately to feed it some flour and water?
Should I feed it some whole wheat flour?
Should I discard the remaining starter and reserve a fresh piece of dough each time I bake so that I get several iterations of starter?

Hi, made my first loaf today and it wasn’t bad, but I’m sure it can be better…crust a little too thick/tough and kind of flat…now for my question…
1. When do you add your starter to your dough? Say you feed it and then do you add it to the dough or do you wait till it doubles and then you add it? Even if you let it rise twice, do you add it after you feed it or do you add it after it doubles? Thanks, bren

Brenda,

I think it all depends on how you maintain your starter. Most bakers recommend you always feed it and let it double before using it to raise bread. You want to make sure it is active. Some even have you go through several builds of starter before mixing the dough. But, I believe Eric said, either on one of the videos, or in reply to a question, that he just uses it straight out of the fridge for the no-knead recipe. I’ve done it both ways, successfully.

When storing a starter, most people say to feed your starter, and then let it work for a while at room temperature, before refrigerating it. But, Mike Avery, who really seems to know his stuff about sourdough, says to feed it and immediately refrigerate.

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/storingastarter.html

Since I have been following his procedure, I’ve always used it right out of the refrigerator. But, then, it has always been full of bubbles, and looking active. I think that if it looked old, without bubbles, and with liquid “hooch” floating on top, that I’d go back to my old procedure of feeding and letting it develop before mixing dough.

Hi
I lived in California for18 years, loved sourdough and never could make it real sour. I’m going to invest time into trying your recipe. Thank you for that superb video presentation.

Anna

Hey, it’s me again…I keep my kitchen pretty cool in the winter and have been having trouble getting my bread to rise…happened to come across this and wondered if any of you have ever tried a proofing box? http://www.thewilbournegroup.com/Sourdough/SourdoughStarterProofingBox.htm

Bren

Then where do you put it when you have to heat your oven?

Bren

Hi, So I’ve read through some of the comments here in search of an answer to a problem I’ve been having with the sourdough no-knead method. Actually, I’m also trying to understand the principles underlying the problem.

The problem is the following: Using the initial recipe listed above, I do an initial rise of something like 18 hours, but I notice that the dough does not expand and is not as bubbly on the surface as in the normal no-knead method that uses commercial yeast. Then, most importantly, the second rise is very minimal. The dough does not even double in size while in the proofing basket. The temperature in my apartment is etiher at or above 70 degrees. And when I cook the thing inside a cloche baker it produces a minimal rise. The first time I did this, the outside was burn and the inside way too wet. The second time, it was edible and full of flavor but still a bit too dense inside. The bread not risen very much in both instances.

My general question here is what are the factors influencing how much bread rises? Can this be described in a general way at all? More particularly, is there a strong relationship between how much expansion occurs during the second rise, and how much the bread finally rises during baking? If so, how do I ensure that the second rise is more successful and why is it not rising as much with wild yeast as opposed to commercial yeast? Is the answer to give the dough longer to rise in the second rise? Or would it be better to increase the amoung of starter that is used? How much more starter should be added to the dough, keeping in mind Pter Reinhart’s idea that one should only use as much yeast as is necessary?

That’s a lot of questions, but perhaps someone has some answers…

Love this site

Thanks!

Is there a ratio out there to express the approximate equivalency between a instant yeast and a wild yeast culture?

Thanks for the great recipe – I am new to bread baking having received a sourdough starter that has been in my family since the 70’s as part of my Christmas gift. I baked two test loaves this past week one according to the recipe and one with 1/4 cup starter and a 2 day refrigeration in the hopes of making it more sour. I am baking using my Mario Batalli enameled cast iron pot and both times burnt the bottom of my bread. The first loaf I pre-heated the pan for 45min – the second time only 30min. Should I reduce the starting temperature to avoid this problem next time? I placed the rack in my oven as far away from the bottom as possible (electric oven). Thanks for any input!

hmmm…. I didn’t notice there are 2 Carolyn’s now …. Hi Carolyn from Jan. 26! I’ll have to start adding a last initial now. So, it’s me, Carolyn F. that’s asking about the amount of first rise.

And Carolyn, I had the same burning bottom problem with my enameled cast iron dutch oven, as have several others. I tried lowering the initial temperature and that helped some. I’ve since moved on to using a terra cotta tray, either a pizza stone or one from the gardening center that I tested to ensure there was no issue with lead. A couple of times I’ve used the kettle portion of my dutch oven as the cover on a pizza stone. It’s heavy and cumbersome to handle when it’s hot, but it worked.

Good Luck,
Carolyn F.

Carolyn from 1/26. I would dearly love to have a bit of your starter if I might prevail upon you. Need to add some more to my collection.

For Carolyn, Carolyn F and Dave -
I have a CI camping dutch oven. Since it has legs, it is a bit awkward to get in and out of the oven. So, I invert a half sheet pan on the rack and put the DO on that. It seems to offer a bit of an air cushion or perhaps deflects some of the direct underneath heat.

In any case, it seems to have eliminated by bottom burning problem. I also transport my dough to the pot on parchment paper and leave it in the pot. So that might be another small additional barrier.

Bob

Hi Bob,
Thank you for the additional information. I believe you’re discussing the starter because you say, “Most agree that the starter/dough is at maximum peak just after it collapses from its highest point.”

However it’s not my starter that concerns me, but rather the bread dough that, in the No Knead recipes, typically sits/proofs/rises for 18 hours.

Carolyn F.

Booji,

No reason at all. Several people on this board have reported doing the same thing. You might have a problem with the bread sticking, but you can avoid that by placing the dough on parchment or Reynolds Release foil in your Dutch oven. My test of hot oven/Dutch oven vs cold showed a little less oven spring for the cold method.

I let mine rise on release foil in a stainless steel bowl that is a little smaller than my Dutch oven, then move the whole thing to the hot Dutch oven to bake.

I’m not very good at estimating doubling of a shaped boule, but, I would guess mine don’t quite double before I bake them. I get lots of oven spring, though.

Hi all,
I’m here to share something I found very interesting… what a huge difference there can be in results when using different baking vessels.

I prepared a batch of my Lavender bread. After stretching and folding the dough I cut it into 2 equal pieces, then let them rise for 2 hours before baking. I baked them at the same time but used 2 different vessels. One was inside my frugal cloche, the other on a clay tray covered by my inverted dutch oven (enameled cast iron).

I wanted to take them out a bit early to freeze, then use as brown & serve, so I set the oven at 475 and baked for 20 minutes covered. At the end of 20 minutes I opened tested the loaf in the cloche (because it’s much lighter weight and easier to handle). The internal temp was a bit low so I continued cooking for 10 more minutes.

What a surprise I had when I opened up the two bakers! The loaf in the cloche was a pale brown with a soft crust and just under 200′. The loaf that was covered by the dutch oven was VERY brown with a hard crust and about 205′ internal temp. You should know that these are quite small loaves, so don’t dwell on the actual baking time… just the huge difference in the final product.

I’m sending Eric a photo so you can see the actual results.

Hello all. Does anyone know if you use a 1/4 cup of refreshed starter or use it straight out of the refrigerator. Usally when I I make Nk with starter I use a cup or cup and a half of starter. These recipes call for only a 1/4 cup, and I’m seeing some proof times of 1 1/2 hours. Is all this true!!! I have several doughs on the counter now (only using a 1/4 cup, I had plenty to make several doughs), that have been there about 3 hours now with hardly any action. Normally using a 1 1/2 of starter it takes about 6-8 hours of proof time. I’m thinking maybe with these I’m trying now it may take 12-15 hours proof time.

This is an excellent site. I don’t know how I haven’t discovered it before. Sounds like there are a lot of knowledgeable and talented bakers out there.

Thanks for your help,
Gary

Hi Eric,
Can you give me a bit more information on what “sufficiently proofed” really means. In the 12-18 hours should the dough double in size, triple, or more? As I mentioned a couple of days ago, I’m using a large bowl/measuring cup so I can keep track of the amount of rise regardless of time or temperature. But I’d like to know what I’m actually shooting for. Your well seasoned experience will be much appreciated.

Carolyn F.

Thanks everyone for the ideas on preventing burning (this is Carolyn from 1/26 – now Carolyn T.)

I baked a loaf for a dinner this weekend and did as suggested and lowered the starting temp to 475 and I checked it at 25min lifting it out using parchment and the bottom was fine. I dropped to 450 and baked for 15min and it came out perfect. I will email Eric to upload a photo for me so you can see. I was very pleased with the crumb structure and it tasted great.

I am having a problem getting my bread to come out more sour even with 48hour retard in the fridge before the 18 hour room temp rise. I need to read through other comments on this blog and start experimenting…

FWIW, if you have a convection oven, that should solve the burning problem. Mine wants to burn on the conventional setting, but is fine in the convection mode.

Hi Marcia,
I’m glad you like the idea, but I can’t take credit for it because I got the idea from someone else here that explained how he did it.

It’s good you’re considering the cleanliness issue, I’m not inclined to use pots that have been used for plants. Do you think washing would really get them clean since they’re so porous? Perhaps heating them to 500′ for an hour would do the trick, but I’m not in a position to know if that’s true or not.

You should think about testing them for lead as well. Another person posted her findings here on breadtopia a few months ago. She bought some pots at Lowes or Home Depot (can’t remember which) and called the California company that made them. They told her they use lead even in their UNglazed pots. She tested her pots and they tested positive for lead. So… I tested mine, too, since they are stamped “made in italy”. (I bought a kit at the hardware store for just a couple dollars.) My pots tested negative, i.e., they contain no detectable level of lead. Someone else suggested using a layer of foil between the bread and the tray.

Since mine were brand new all I did was wash them in soapy water. I don’t season them either. But sprinkling some cornmeal or bran on the tray before placing the dough would help prevent sticking.

I’ve done 2 different things with the drainage hole. The first few times I just stuffed a ball of foil in the hole and flattened it out. But the pot is cumbersome without a handle. So I purchased a carriage bolt, 2 nuts, and 2 washers to construct the handle (total cost $1). You can see it in the photo above and it works very well. I wish I’d bought wider washers, though, at least 3/4′ wider than the hole, just to make it easier to completely cover the hole.

I would also recommend a pot that’s about 1″ wider than the tray. Both of mine are 8″ diameter so I’m looking for a 9″ pot which is an unusual size. Using a tray that’s much wider than the pot can be problematic – it’s too easy to set the edge of the pot on the edge of the dough. Trust me, you don’t want that to happen.

I hope I’ve answered your questions. Have fun!

Carolyn F.

Carolyn F.,

You’re recommending a terracotta tray smaller than the flowerpot? Won’t the precious moisture (steam) escape?

I find I get a much thinner and lighter crust using my flowerpot cloches than I get from my cast iron Dutch oven, and I suspect, although I can’t prove, that it is a combination of less thermal mass, lighter color, and a much looser seal allowing moisture to escape.

I successfully doubled your recipe, steel cut oats, but used 7 grain cereal. I measured the cereal and water I intended to use, boiled the water and added it to the cereal to soften. It didn’t soften too much and I should have run it through the processor but didn’t this time. Next time, I will use sprouted grains instead of the cereal. Anyway, the bread at 18 hours turned out delicious. I left the rest of the dough in the fridge for over a week and today I divided it in half, right out of the fridge, about 2 large grapefruit size balls and shaped them into loaves, plunked them upside down onto sesame seeded rising bowl. I lined a medium high cereal-soup bowl with an old napkin and sprinkled the sesame seeds and flour into it with the loaf upside down in it. When it was doubled, about 1 hour, I put a piece of parchment over it and flipped it over. I slashed it deeply and put it into the hot dutch oven. On my second loaf I added an ice cube under the parchment and put the lid on it. The crust was really thick and this is what I am excited about. My no-kneaf loaves have been crips but not thick crusted which is what I’ve been trying to achieve. Unfortunately, I think the bread was just a little too sour after a week in the fridge but that’s OK. I toned it down with butter and it was great. The recipe seems to be greatly adaptable. Since I’m having to watch my carbs, I want to increase the fiber in bread and am getting closer to great tasting bread that is not all white flour. Your videos, recipes and postings have been helpful and greatly inspirational to my bread baking journey. Thank you.

How do I post a picture here of my bread? Sorry Eric I’m new to all of this!

Carolyn F,

Now I understand. Excellent idea. I may just run out to the garden center to see what they still have, and give it a try. I think all the pots are still 1/2 price for the off-season.

The other advantage to your idea is that the smaller tray might give me room for two pots in the oven at one time.

Dave… Let me know if you find a pot/tray combination that’s only 1″ different in size. I’ve only been able to find 8″, 10″, 12″ etc. I also use an “azalea” pot since they aren’t as tall.

Bob… I originally went shopping for an eye bolt, but ended up with the carriage bolt because I felt I could get a better grip on it with a pot holder.

I cann0t get the hang of oven mitts. So I use double pot holders to lift my DO,

BTW, I found out the other day that wet potholders transfer heat very rapidly!!!!

I won’t make THAT mistake again!!!!!

Bob

Thanks Eric for the comments, the bread that I made came out the same as yours in the pic you provided.

David

Hi All,
I may have inadvertently stumbled on a solution for scorched and burned bottom crusts. I was about to put the dough onto a piece of parchment paper and realized that there was too much paper for my proofing bowl, which makes it awkward to handle when putting it into a hot cloche. So I cut the paper in half and put both pieces in crossways to each other. After I baked the bread at 500 for 30 min with the lid and 20 min at 425 without the lid, the crust came out looking great – and the bottom looks great also. The interior temp was 210 when I took it out of the oven.

I am wondering whether the two layers of parchment paper did the job.

Fred

Hi all,

I was wondering how I can make my bread less sour…I have a white flour starter that’s about 5 months old (made using your pineapple juice method) and every bread that I’ve made with it has been too sour for my taste. I’ve tried feeding the started with 6 times it’s volume (according to Rose L.Berenbaum that can help to reduce the sourness in the final bread).
Any ideas?

Booji,
Thanks for the info about shorter cold rise. I will try it.

Remember that it takes quite a while for the oven to reach 450 because the oven material soaks up the heat. That’s one of the advantages of preheating the oven. Notice that in the video Eric preheats his oven for 35 minutes. When I use a cold oven I leave the lid on for 50 minutes and then leave it in for another 20-30 with the lid off.

The other things may be your thermometer. I have an analog one that I recalibrated by putting it in boiling water. When I did that I discovered that it had been reading low.

Fred

Hi, Fred,

THANK YOU for the info about the DO and your baking times. I have a small kitchen in a small apartment, and if I can get better results starting from a cold oven I would like that.

I will try leaving the lid on for longer.

I opted to cut the proofing time down after watching my starter. Each time I’d feed it, it would be really active at 8 hours and pretty much done by 12 – and not much difference between 12 and 18. At 18, I wasn’t getting a good rise.

I have now had good result at 12 and 14 hours of proofing. Seems to work well with this starter.

Shortening the proofing time made a nice loaf this morning.

These Improvements,
with melted butter,
are good.

AWESOME RESULTS!
Tried my first loaf in a dutch oven that I borrowed from my friend, it was her Mom’s, it’s old, well seasoned and well loved.
The loaf was perfect and I am praying that it was not beginners luck.
I followed the recipe and video directions to a T.
My husband & son ate it up as fast as they could, I managed to get 2 slices for my lunch, so yummy toasted with a slice of havarti cheese on top and a slice of tomato seasoned with basil, S&P. It was a fantastic meal in itself.
Heading down to Minneapolis next week and a Dutch Oven is on my shopping list along with picking up the box of cool stuff I’d ordered from your site.
My son took pictures. Wanna see? Not sure how to upload pics though.

Hi 1000hugs- If you save your discards or just have a lot of starter to work with, there are a number of sourdough recipes @ RecipeZaar to bake with using 1-2 cups of starter per recipe. I’ve tried a select few and admit they were very tasty. I believe most of the recipes were by Paula G. and Donna M. I hope this helps! Susan in Calgary, AB

Susan Daku Thank you for the information! I’ll take a look for sourdough starter recipes there. It does seem to be a good website. I made baked buffalo wings on Valentines day from one of their recipes. It turned out so good I made it again for Sunday!!!!

Loaves coming out reliably wonderfully now due, I think, to the maturity of my starter and using a Dutch Oven. Starter can now handle the longer proofing times, puts up with longer proofing in the fridge, and rises reliably.

huge, buttery, steamy hugs

I made some sour dough starter 5 days ago that is looking great I am getting ready to make my first sour dough italian bread. thanks for the great vidio on how to do things. I have ben making no knead bread for two month now with great susess

Actually 2nd rising took 7 hours, NOT 11.

I’ve made about 5 sourdough loaves now in my Romertopf — each one a little different! Yesterday I took one to work for our potluck and got raves. It had a lovely crisp/chewy crust and was dense inside, not too holey. I think I had better results this time using a slightly stiffer dough (more flour). My previous ones were so wet they were hard to handle, though they did give great artisan-y holes. (My workmates did not need to know that I had left the bread in the hot oven just a tad too long with the lid off… and had to knock off some black charred edges with the side of a knife! Ah well, no harm done…)

Hi Eric,
On one video you spooned out your sourdough starter from a jar to a cup measure, with the starter in it’s risen or inflated state and that surprised me. As I have been measuring out my starter by volume I had assumed I would need to stir the starter first to knock the bubbles out, making my measure more consistant. Is the variation likely to have an effect on the result, particularly if the starter is very active?

Regards,
Ian

My crust is too thick for my liking. how do i get a softer crust? also the inside is too wet and/or not cooked. I used teh whoel wheat sour dough recipe.

thanks

A couple of questons. Does it matter if I use “white whole wheat” instead of the dark version?
When you use 5 oz of wwf and 11 oz of bread flour, what would happen if you increased the wwf and decreased the bf to kept the 15 oz of flour called for in the recipe, ie. 7 oz of wwf and 8 oz of bf?

I recently used the 5 wwf and 11 oz of bf and this was a lot better than my previous breads with 15 oz bf or all purpose flour.

Hi there!

I love your site! So I made this today and it taste great and I got a lovely crumb. However it did not rise AT ALL. It looks like focaccia bread. And the bottom crust is slightly burnt. Do you know what could be the reason for no rise? When I turned my bowl over to release the dough into the dutch oven it was still rather wet and as soon as it hit the pan it spread out like a pancake. I would love any thoughts or suggestions. Thanks!

I’ve been progressing through the various no-knead recipes for 6 months or so, and tried the sourdough per your original post a couple of weeks ago. I wasn’t sure of the activity of my starter, which I had never made anything but pancakes with, so I put in somewhat more than 1/4 cup (not a lot more, just a bit). The first rise wasn’t quite what it had been with the original recipe, or even the one-fourth WW flour recipe with instant yeast, but it was satisfactory. The 2-hour rise had me a bit worried re flatness. The finished loaf (done in an enameled Lodge DO) was a bit flatter than the others, but it tasted FANTASTIC.

I should note that my starter began as a levain that the local artisan baker gave me at a class, and I’ve been souring it up by feeding it with rye flour, and it is quite sour.

When I gave it to my friend the artisan baker, he said the crumb was great and the sourness was pretty high but good tasting. I loved it. Thanks for the recipe.

Dear Eric,
I recently came across your site while researching sourdough recipes. I am new to bread baking but old to cooking gal (hubby calls this “intuitive cooking” – a handful of this, a splash of that.) I had tried breadmaking 35 years ago as a new (first time) bride and was much discouraged by the manual, labor-intensive kneading, rising, punching down, etc., etc. The results were also underappreciated so I never ventured that way again. However, with a new Kitchenaid mixer and dough hook at hand and a more appreciative audience, I tried baking bread again 7 months ago. It still did not seem worth the time and effort until I came across the No Knead method in its’ many variations. And I found you guys!!!!

Two weeks in the fridge and No Knead bread is distinctively sour tasting, so I thought, why not try the real thing???
I ordered a starter from King Arthur Bread, which arrived on a VERY warm day in the Phoenix area via the UPS van. I thought the poor thing was dead, but given sufficient time on the counter and feedings, bubbling eventually took place.

My first two loafs were tasty by I wasn’t happy with the rise.
I re-watched your videos (they are really great and very helpful) and read through a tons of the messages and came up with a plan. (I had to adjust the rising time to the hotter weather here – 12 hours for the rise and the dough was a bit more than doubled.)I used a round cake pan lined with a silicon sheet and after the 15 minute rest, let my dough finish rising in the pan. I then placed the pan onto my preheated (500 degreeF) pizza stone and covered it with the bottom half of my dutch oven (also preheated) inverted over the dough. Thirtyfive minutes later I removed the DO cover and WOW- I had rise! I left the top without slashing it and got a great split top in the shape of a “Y.” I took this as a sign from my bread the “yes, you have found the secret to great sour dough!” I let it cook another 12 minuted at 450F. Wonderful bread, great taste, nice sized holes with that shiny quality inside the holes. The crust was crunchy and not too thick. With the warmer weater here, I am sure I will need to adjust some of my techniques to the coming heat and humidity -or lack thereof. But I just wanted to thank you so much for this website.
Also, I would like to get a slightly more sour flavor. Do you think adding some rye flour to the next feeding or two might help?

Thanks, again.
Jeanine in Chandler, AZ.

P.S. I will try and add a picture later, when I can get it downloaded to my computer.

Here is a picture of the loaf I made that finally acheived some good lift. I forgot to mention that I sprinkled the top with sesame, poppy, salt , pepper, and caraway seeds and gave it a quick spritz of water before baking.
Very yummy.
Jeanine

*Click to enlarge

What is a good proofing temperature? 75 or less? I recently took part of my whole wheat starter and converted it to a white starter. (Made the sourdough pancakes for dinner, great!) Would it really matter which starter I used to make my bread? Would there be any taste difference if i used my white starter to make a wheat or vise versa? Love the site. Made a cinnamon raisin nk, looked great and tasted even better. I actually love making bread now! Thanks.

Bob,

When you say you do not have much success with 100 percent whole wheat breads, what do you dislike? Is it the lack of rise or taste? Just courious because I haven’t tried it yet. I have read enough of your comments to know that if you don’t have much success, a novice like me don’t stand a chance. I will accept a little bit flat loaf if it taste great.

Wil

I agree with Bob on his assessment of whole wheat. I’ve made 100% whole wheat bread and found it to be dry and flat. I presume there’s a fix for that if you’re more creative than I. Here’s an excerpt from the the Fresh Loaf site that Bob mentions above. They are talking about hydration levels of dough, which thanks to Eric I now know to be the weight of the water divided by the weight of the flour multiplied by 100. Please note the last part where it talks about whole grains:

The percentage of water varies quite a bit depending on the type of bread.

Bagels: Made from a dry dough, water is anywhere from 50% to 60%
Sandwich bread: 60% to 65%
French bread (baguettes, etc): 65% to 70%
Ciabattas: 70% to 80%
Whole grain breads: Whole grains absorb a lot more water than do white flours. For whole-wheat bagels, bakers hydrate the dough at about 60%. For most other breads, they go anywhere from 70% to 85%.

For what it’s worth. My first experience with whole wheat flour and sourdough ANKB, was to follow the recipe, 5 oz of wwf and 11 oz of all purpose flour. GREAT RESULTS! My second experience was to use 8 oz wwf and 8 oz apf. Not as good as number 1. My next baking will be to go back to 5 oz wwf and 11 oz apf, or might even go to 4 oz wwf and 12 oz apf. This is what is great about baking, change the recipe and see what happens. The proof is in the crumb and crust.

Bill

Sorry about that. The term ANKB popped up on the site and I think it means “Almost” No Knead Bread. I have been using the term for the process of streching and folding the dough a number of times with periods of rest in between, maybe 3 or 4 times. It is kneading but not very much. If you look at some of the whole grain recipes you will see this done. I hope this helps.

Wil

Wil,

Do you use steel cut oats as opposed to regular rolled oats for a particular reason?

Bob

Wil, thanks for the info.

I throw rolled oats in once in a while and then sprinkle them on top. Gives it a bit of a crunch.

Bob

Bill,

Vital wheat gluten is basically almost pure protein.

This from Bob’s Red Mill flour: Gluten, Vital Wheat is the natural protein found in wheat. It contains 75% protein. A small amount added to yeast bread recipes improves the texture and elasticity of the dough. This is often used by commercial bakeries to produce light textured breads, and can easily put the home bread baker on a par with the professionals. Vital Wheat Gluten can also be used to make a meat substitute known as seitan.

I buy my vital wheat gluten in boxes at wallyworld (assuming you are American).

I use about a tablespoon per cup of flour in a recipe. I do not normally use it in white flour loaves as my starter is strong enough to raise the bread.

But I sometimes, not always, use it in rye or whole wheat breads to get better rise.

If you google it, you will find that it is also used, but not in the powdered form, as a substitute for meats somewhat akin to soy. You can even make your own, if you want to go to that much effort.

Bob

How old is your starter? A good vigorous one should be able to do it. If you get desperate, get some of Eric’s. It will raise a house off the foundation!

How did you get that big blow out on your loaf? Scoring looks pretty good, so I would have thought it would have followed. perhaps the short strokes might have been a bit deeper.

Bill,

Let me offer a couple of alternatives.

1. Cut a piece of paper bigger than your loaf out of parchment paper. Put it on top of the loaf in the breadform. Put a sheet pan or cookie sheet on top of the parchment paper. Turn the breadform and sheet pan over gently. Lift off the bread form. Pick up the loaf carefully using the edges of the parchment paper. Lower it gently into the hot container. Proceed. If you want to score your loaf, do it after you invert and remove the bread form.

2. Do not pre-heat the container. Do the same steps above. Put the loaf into the container. Set the oven to your desire temperature. You will probably have to add 10 – 15 minutes (your pre-heat time) to the baking time.

2nd method – less chance of burned fingers!!!!

Bob

Bill,

Not too shabby! In fact, down right purty! Now, fess up, who did it for you? lol.

I need to take some pictures of the rye I just took out of the oven. I got impatient and did not proof long enough nor did I score. All four loaves of the first batch blew out on the sides. The second batch proofed 45 minutes long and I scored them. They look almost purty. Big difference!

Bob

Harvey,

Are you doing sourdough or dry yeast? Shouldn’t really matter – a quarter teaspoon of dry yeast or a quarter cup of starter should do the trick for you. As for moisture content, I have tried anywhere from 65% to 80%, and have finally settled on a 70% hydration level. Seems the wetter the better where oven spring is concerned, but I really have trouble working with a dough much wetter than 70%. If, however, I use any whole grains in the ingredients, then I’ll add a touch more water. With pure white flour, try 500g of flour and 350g of water. That gives me a dough I can still work with, good rise and great oven spring. See me photos above.